sofasurfer
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I have a 2m/70cm radio. There are 10m radios and 6m radios. There is a radio for every band. But what do you call a transceiver that covers every band? Do they have a name or are they just called the "big and expensive" ones?
What to call a full service transceiver?
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Full coverage? All band?
I just checked out the Kenwood, Icom and Yaesu websites. Only Yaesu and Icom have rigs covering HF/VHF/UHF. There doesn't seem to be a distinct name for these types of rigs.
It's a good question to propose, though!
73,
Jim W4PKR
I just checked out the Kenwood, Icom and Yaesu websites. Only Yaesu and Icom have rigs covering HF/VHF/UHF. There doesn't seem to be a distinct name for these types of rigs.
It's a good question to propose, though!
73,
Jim W4PKR
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n5ims
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They're called "when it breaks, you're totally out of business until it's fixed" radios. Those "every band" radios, generally don't actually cover every band. They do cover HF, 50 MHz band, 146 MHz band, 440 MHz band, and some even 1.2 GHz. They don't generally include 220 MHz band, 900 MHz band, or much of the microwave bands a ham license has access to. Often the missing bands are less popular so this may or may not be much of an issue, but to be complete, you must consider if you will miss out not having access to them.
While they do have a place, it's often better to have separate HF and VHF/UHF radios. I say this for various reasons:
1) When it breaks, you're totally off the air. (Yea, kinda like I said above).
2) When you're on one frequency, you can't generally do anything on other frequencies. (e.g. you're chasing DX on HF and can't monitor the local DX group's repeater to find out what DX is booming in on various frequencies that other locals are working right now.)
3) Often, those every band radios are basically optimized for HF use and will allow use of other bands using converters or band specific boards that work, but may not be as good as radios that are specifically designed to work there.
4) Those every band radios generally don't work the various digital modes that may be available using individual VHF/UHF radios. On the plus side, though, they generally work on SSB while many individual VHF/UHF radios may not.
While they do have a place, it's often better to have separate HF and VHF/UHF radios. I say this for various reasons:
1) When it breaks, you're totally off the air. (Yea, kinda like I said above).
2) When you're on one frequency, you can't generally do anything on other frequencies. (e.g. you're chasing DX on HF and can't monitor the local DX group's repeater to find out what DX is booming in on various frequencies that other locals are working right now.)
3) Often, those every band radios are basically optimized for HF use and will allow use of other bands using converters or band specific boards that work, but may not be as good as radios that are specifically designed to work there.
4) Those every band radios generally don't work the various digital modes that may be available using individual VHF/UHF radios. On the plus side, though, they generally work on SSB while many individual VHF/UHF radios may not.
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Kenwood TS-2000. HF, 6m, 2m, 70cm all in one box. 23cm is optional. Dual receive so you can monitor HF and 2m simultaneously, for example (I believe the Icom IC-9100 can do this, too). Nice radio, though it's been on the market more than a decade.
And that's the primary reason why I recommend against these radios. But, for some situations, the "shack in a box" approach works.
902
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I've never heard the term "full service," but I suppose something like that would be. I've eyed up the Kenwood all-band all-mode, and knew a guy who had one. He was very satisfied with it and said it was a fine radio. It all depends on your preference.
For me, I like different radios for different bands. If something goes wrong, I don't lose everything. I can also optimize settings for whatever I intend to do. That said, I've also played around with transverters. I have Downeast Microwave 2 meter and 6 meter transverters. I rarely use the 2 meter one (I've got an Icom-910H since I built the transverter), but I use the 6 meter one all the time, hooked up to a Mirage brick for 100 W, or could be hooked up to a Clegg Apollo 6 amplifier for about 400 W.
Some of the guys I hang with are into the unpopular bands for VHF and UHF contesting. They mostly use transverters or sometimes even homebrew equipment. For example, you probably won't find 220 SSB in any radio anytime soon, but it's a good band with great propagation characteristics.
If I had unlimited resources (read: I'm just about broke), I'd go looking for an FT-726R (I like to separate my HF and VHF/UHF rigs) and soup it up with all kinds of preamps and accessories, and a great antenna system. At the end of the day, you could spend tens of thousands of dollars on your radio, but without a good antenna, it won't work any better than something much, much less expensive.
Token
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“All band” and “DC to Daylight” are terms I have heard applied to these radios, of course they are not either of these things, but the sentiment is there.
They definitely have their places. For example in a mobile application with limited space for both the radio and the display / control head they are fine. Sometimes they are not quite as good a performer as band specific radios, but that is not hard and fast.
This depends on the failure. While these radios often share many pieces among the bands there are also band specific sub-units. It also depends on the radio, ones with dual receivers / dual band operation often are really two, or three, radios in one box with very separate systems. You can lose half the radio and still have a functioning radio.
Again, it depends on the radio. For example the Kenwood TS2000 allows you to work any band in the radio on the main band while using 2 meters / 70 cm on the sub band. That means you can be on your favorite 40 meter swap net at the same time you are talking with locals on 2 meters.
This same feature allows remote and cross band operation. You can have the 40 meter swap net two-way cross banded to say 2 meters or 70 cm, and monitor / talk on 40 meters using a hand held.
There is no technical reason this cannot work as well as a monoband radio. After all, it is just an IF as far as radio design goes. When this does not work as well as a dedicated mono bander is when the maker tries to do it on the cheap.
Many of the best weak signal stations on VHF and above often use transverters with an HF radio, the same basic approach you are describing. They can have superb performance.
By digital modes you mean the digital voice modes? I can’t think of any digital data mode that can’t be done with an all-bander.
T!
They definitely have their places. For example in a mobile application with limited space for both the radio and the display / control head they are fine. Sometimes they are not quite as good a performer as band specific radios, but that is not hard and fast.
This depends on the failure. While these radios often share many pieces among the bands there are also band specific sub-units. It also depends on the radio, ones with dual receivers / dual band operation often are really two, or three, radios in one box with very separate systems. You can lose half the radio and still have a functioning radio.
Again, it depends on the radio. For example the Kenwood TS2000 allows you to work any band in the radio on the main band while using 2 meters / 70 cm on the sub band. That means you can be on your favorite 40 meter swap net at the same time you are talking with locals on 2 meters.
This same feature allows remote and cross band operation. You can have the 40 meter swap net two-way cross banded to say 2 meters or 70 cm, and monitor / talk on 40 meters using a hand held.
There is no technical reason this cannot work as well as a monoband radio. After all, it is just an IF as far as radio design goes. When this does not work as well as a dedicated mono bander is when the maker tries to do it on the cheap.
Many of the best weak signal stations on VHF and above often use transverters with an HF radio, the same basic approach you are describing. They can have superb performance.
By digital modes you mean the digital voice modes? I can’t think of any digital data mode that can’t be done with an all-bander.
T!
This is part of Kenwood's SkyCommand System, which is also supported by the TM-D710A, among other Kenwood models.
The Yaesu FT-991 supports System Fusion DV on 10 meters and above. The Icom IC-7100 and IC-9100 support D-STAR on all bands (the IC-9100 requires an additional internal module to do so). None of the other digital voice modes are available on HF, due to them being primarily Land Mobile Radio modes. And only D-STAR is currently available in a form of external module that can be used on any radio that supports the standard "packet" 6 pin mini-DIN pinout, though the hardware used could easily be adapted to do System Fusion as well, and possibly DMR and NXDN.
Token
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Skycommand is an integrated control structure / system. Using a Skycommand capable radio (another TS2000 or one of the mobiles or hand helds that support it) you can have fairly complete remote control of the other radio. However the basic cross band repeat can be done with any HT or mobile, meaning I often use my Yaesu VX-5 as the remote from one of my TS2000's.
System Fusion and D-STAR are primarily voice modes that happen to be able to support data, aren't they? I guess it could be argued that D-STAR is a data mode that supports voice, but seriously, if not for the digital voice ability of those modes, would they even exist? And both of those modes are pretty brand specific. By "digital data" modes being supported by all-banders I was referring to more traditional data modes, packet, PSK, etc.
T!
The TS-2000 has a built-in packet TNC.
Decoding RTTY and PSK31 within the radio is certainly do-able. The Icom IC-7600, Elecraft K3, and others can do that. It's just a matter of how many functions you want to cram in a box and how much money people are willing to spend for such functions.
System Fusion, yes, as the current firmware levels for the radios and repeaters don't support data transfer via external devices. D-STAR does have two purely data submodes that are independent of any need for a voice transmission. Brand specific is a relative statement; if you mean that Icom is the only commercial source for a radio that does the digital voice out of the box, and the same for Yaesu and System Fusion, yes. But since they are openly published specifications, anyone that wishes to develop compatible hardware is free to do so, and there are numerous sources for node and radio adapters that can add D-STAR to any radio; I can easily use it on my FT-817ND or FT-857D with the DV-RPTR Version one board and the addon AMBE-2020 module. And I can swap the connection cable out for my Signalink USB and play on PSK31 or ARDOP_Chat (a new digital mode that I am helping to develop) on the same radio.
sofasurfer
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The reason I started this thread is that until I recently got interested in getting started in ham I had always thought that a ham radio is a ham radio, that a ham radio was a radio that can be tuned to receive and transmit on any frequency. Now I know better. Come to think of it, it seems unlikely that one radio dial could tune to EVERY frequency.
Token
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The core of my comment, in response to the post I quoted, was that there is little that can't be done with an all-band radio that can be done with a single band or dedicated VHF/UHF. Technically there is nothing that can't be done with an all-bander that can be done with a monobander, however a few things are not built into all-banders (yet) that can be found in monobanders. That doesn't mean you can't do them, it only means they don't do it out of the box.
T!
Token
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All it takes is money.
One radio could be built that tuned to (TX and RX) every usable frequency in the RF range, it is not even technically all that difficult. But there would be essentially no market for such a radio and it would be pretty expensive.
There are some receivers on the market that come pretty close to that already, able to receive from VLF to SHF all in one box. But realistically once you get below about 30 kHz or above about 6 GHz the use of RF spectrum gets pretty specialized. There is stuff there, but it can have a pretty narrow appeal, or require more than just a tuner capable of receiving the frequency to get anything out of it.
T!
It's called a "Wulfsberg" and there are various models -
https://www.wulfsberg.com
https://www.wulfsberg.com
I'm going to assume you're interested in SSB/weak signal work. FM transceivers are so cheap that it is almost a given that you'll want to use one for each band.
Building a do-it-all transceiver usually involves a compromise somewhere. On HF, you're really looking for good IMD and phase noise performance; sensitivity is usually not much of an issue. On VHF, you're looking for sensitivity and moderate IMD performance. On UHF, sensitivity doesn't really matter as much because transmission line losses tend to force you to use a remote LNA and cavity filter at the antenna. What matters more is frequency stability, separate transmit and receive antenna connections, and possibly good phase noise performance.
This is why I tend to get grouchy every time someone touts a ridiculously expensive "DC to daylight" transceiver. It will do a lot, but unless you're willing to pay insane prices, it won't do any of them well.
Building a do-it-all transceiver usually involves a compromise somewhere. On HF, you're really looking for good IMD and phase noise performance; sensitivity is usually not much of an issue. On VHF, you're looking for sensitivity and moderate IMD performance. On UHF, sensitivity doesn't really matter as much because transmission line losses tend to force you to use a remote LNA and cavity filter at the antenna. What matters more is frequency stability, separate transmit and receive antenna connections, and possibly good phase noise performance.
This is why I tend to get grouchy every time someone touts a ridiculously expensive "DC to daylight" transceiver. It will do a lot, but unless you're willing to pay insane prices, it won't do any of them well.
Token
Member
All band radios fit a need and application, they are not the end all do all radios some think. Yes, they can absolutely be beat in performance by monoband VHF / UHF radios or dedicate HF radios, but they have a large advantage when space is tight or when you want less gear. Mobile applications come to mind. Or people who want compact shacks for whatever reason, even if to just reduce desk clutter.
I am not sure I would consider most of the all band radio out there to be ridiculously expensive.
Consider say the brand new, still not sale priced or discounted, Yaesu FT-991, at about $1590, the most expensive all band radio Yaesu markets and I think the most expensive on the market by any maker. To get the same coverage (HF, 6M, 2M, 70cm with C4FM) using other equipment from the same company (to keep cost apples and apples) would not result in much less cost. Selecting the very lowest cost gear you would need something like an FT-450D for the HF and 6M, and an FTM-100DR for 2M / 70cm. This results in the same frequency coverage and power output for only about $1150 ($750 for the FT-450 and $400 for the FTM-100DR), $440 less than the -991. However, you still do not have weak signal operation on VHF / UHF, and you have a larger physical footprint. And the -991 is brand new, give it 6 months and I bet the price goes down a bit.
And basing the comparison on the less expensive FT-897D the delta gets smaller. Of course it does not have C4FM, so you must compare none-digital VHF / UHF radios, say the FT-7900R at about $310. So now the HF / 6M / 2M / 70cm ends up costing about $1060 for two radios to provide the same coverage, while the all bander cost about $1075. The cost delta is $15, or less than a 2% premium for the all band. The performance of the selected gear is very comparable. And you may have saved $15, but you still do not have weak signal modes on VHF and UHF, a remote face (for the -450) and you have a physically larger footprint. Of course, you do have the ability now to operate HF / 6M while also operating VHF or UHF, and a single failure is less likely to cause complete radio outage.
Looking at other brands you will find similar cost deltas.
All banders are not the only answer, and they may not fit everyone’s needs. But they do have application, and they do bring some capability that is hard or impossible to find in other form factors.
T!
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