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When do you need to upgrade alternator?

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natedawg1604

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So I'm making plans for a mobile install on a older (2003) Honda CR-V. I'm ultimately looking at 3-5 radios, maybe 2-3 Harris 7/800 mobiles for NAS, and a Kenwood NX-3720 and 3820 for ham stuff. I may also add a Uniden scanner at some point, maybe a 536HP.

I'm gonna start by installing 1 or 2 mobile radios and periodically checking current draw with an amp meter. However, I'm wondering at what point I should seriously consider getting an upgraded or second alternator? 3 radios? Or 5?

I've also looked at getting a second battery with an isolator, but from what I've read that only helps when the engine isn't running, and I tend to do a lot of driving/road trips so I'm not sure how much a second battery would really help.

For those with experience installing and running numerous radios, how many radios can a standard alternator typically tolerate?
 

mmckenna

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So I'm making plans for a mobile install on a older (2003) Honda CR-V. I'm ultimately looking at 3-5 radios, maybe 2-3 Harris 7/800 mobiles for NAS, and a Kenwood NX-3720 and 3820 for ham stuff. I may also add a Uniden scanner at some point, maybe a 536HP.

Yeah, as ka3aaa suggested, I don't see an issue with what you have.

The 2-3 Harris radios won't draw a lot of power, maybe 1-2 amps each when actively receiving. When sitting idle, probably less.
The two Kenwood's won't draw much on their own, except when transmitting, and even then, you are looking at around 12 amps transmit, an amp or so RX, and less when sitting idle.
Scanner won't draw much.

I'd say you've got about 5-6 amps maximum draw with all your radios on, all receiving with the volume up. That should not overtax your alternator.
And you can only transmit with one radio at a time, unless your passenger is going to be talking also. That extra 12 amps or so periodically should not break anything.

If you did some digging, you should be able to find something from Honda that tells you what the alternator output is at different engine RPM's.
If you got hold of the right manuals, they should have something that lays out all the loads in the vehicle. That should give you an idea of how much extra capacity the alternator has.

If your Honda is tricked out with all the options, the alternator would still have extra capacity. It would/should be designed to run everything in the vehicle with the engine at idle. That would mean high beams on, windshield wipers on high, defroster running on high, heated seats on, stereo cranked up, trailer hooked up with trailer lights on, etc. And don't forget it's probably got a couple of cigarette lighter sockets that will run 10amps each….
It's unlikely you'd be driving around with all that stuff cranked up at the same time, so unlikely you'd ever overload the alternator even with your radios.
Also, remember that people will often add bigger stereos, audio amplifiers, charging lots of cell phones, auxiliary lighting, etc. Rarely do any of them add bigger alternators or extra batteries.

I don't think you have enough load there to be concerned unless you've got a failing alternator, or you've added a lot of other accessories.

I've also looked at getting a second battery with an isolator, but from what I've read that only helps when the engine isn't running, and I tend to do a lot of driving/road trips so I'm not sure how much a second battery would really help.

Yeah, second battery is like adding an auxiliary fuel tank. It only gets you so much further before you have to stop and fill up.
Driving along at highway speed should put the engine RPM's right around the sweet spot for the highest alternator output.

I'd pay more attention to the health of the system. Make sure you have a good battery. Make sure you lay out all your wiring correctly, fused properly, good connections and proper sized wire. I'd also recommend adding something like a Lind shutdown timer that will kill everything after you shut down the engine.
 

cmjonesinc

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I would be rather impressed to see the mounting and belt routing of a second alternator on one of those vehicles. They definitely didn't leave much room to work, much less add accessories. As it's already been stated, you'll be fine with what you have. I do recommend using some relays or existing radio options to make everything key switched. Nothing worse than forgetting to turn a radio off and to be greeted with a dead battery.
 

PACNWDude

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I only upgrade the alternator on my vehicles if the headlights dim when transmitting. That was only the case on a Chevy suburban that was running VHF Lo/VHF/UHF, a Motorola MW800 Mobile Data Terminal / GPS / VHS camera system and satellite phone all at the same time. However, it was the two KC Daylighter lights on the brush guard that really prompted the alternator upgrade. That Honda will be fine.
 

belvdr

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I would be rather impressed to see the mounting and belt routing of a second alternator on one of those vehicles. They definitely didn't leave much room to work, much less add accessories. As it's already been stated, you'll be fine with what you have. I do recommend using some relays or existing radio options to make everything key switched. Nothing worse than forgetting to turn a radio off and to be greeted with a dead battery.
Similar to a supercharger, you cut a hole in the hood. :D
 

FKimble

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He's wanting to swapout a standard alternator for a higher capacity one, not install a second one. You can add a second battery on an isolator and wire your radios directly to the 2nd battery or you can add a second battery wired in parallel which will give you more amps available to every thing in the vehicle. But as already mentioned, your really shouldn'd need either.

Frank
 

belvdr

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He's wanting to swapout a standard alternator for a higher capacity one, not install a second one. You can add a second battery on an isolator and wire your radios directly to the 2nd battery or you can add a second battery wired in parallel which will give you more amps available to every thing in the vehicle. But as already mentioned, your really shouldn'd need either.

Frank
Well...
However, I'm wondering at what point I should seriously consider getting an upgraded or second alternator? 3 radios? Or 5?
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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Invest in a LIND shutdown timer. I found a model SDT1230-22 (2 x 15 amp out) for cheap on ebay. It will sense when you crank the engine and turn on loads after the alternator is up to speed and will shut down your loads after a delay time which you can adjust, or on partially depleted battery. You can also wire to the ignition switch to sense accessory on, and/or wire to an auxillary switch. That way you can run your radios with engine off and not run the battery down. Connect the ignition sense wires of the high power radios to the timer. You may want to get an auxiliary fuse block for all those radios.

 

wwhitby

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My bigger question would be "how are you going to fit all the stuff in a Honda?"

FWIW, I have a TK-7180, TK-8180, TM-733a and a PSR-500 scanner in my Honda Civic. Remote head kits are a blessing! :)

I only upgrade the alternator on my vehicles if the headlights dim when transmitting. That was only the case on a Chevy suburban that was running VHF Lo/VHF/UHF, a Motorola MW800 Mobile Data Terminal / GPS / VHS camera system and satellite phone all at the same time. However, it was the two KC Daylighter lights on the brush guard that really prompted the alternator upgrade. That Honda will be fine.

Many vehicles have alternators that are barely sufficient for the current draw of the vehicle's electronics. For example, my Jeep CJ-5 would dim the headlights when I turned on the blower motor, and my Honda Civic will dim the headlights when the A/C fan kicks on. A higher amp alternator would benefit those situations, and adding a 125amp alternator definately helped with my Jeep. However, I've never had radio equipment that would cause the same thing to happen. Its usually the stock vehicle electronics.

OP, if you do decide to upgrade your alternator, watch out for alternators that only deliver the higher amperage at highway speed RPMs. Many of the aftermarket alternators will provide substantially less amps at idle. Also, I've looked into a higher amp aftermarket alternator for my Civic, but the reviews I've seen aren't good for many of them. They don't seem to work right, so I've stayed away from one of them. I'd rather have slightly dimmed headlights than an alternator going out on the highway!
 

mmckenna

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My wife had a Honda when we got married. If sitting at idle, the engine would bog down if you turned on the headlights. Or the defroster. Or ran the power windows….

Ideally an SUV would have something a little better, especially since they are marketed as something that will tow a trailer, and the additional loads that go with that.
 

wwhitby

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My wife had a Honda when we got married. If sitting at idle, the engine would bog down if you turned on the headlights. Or the defroster. Or ran the power windows….

LOL! My Civic has a 63 amp alternator! :) 63 amps seems to be the magic number for a lot of alternators used in vehicles.

Ideally an SUV would have something a little better, especially since they are marketed as something that will tow a trailer, and the additional loads that go with that.

I looked it up and a remanufactured alternator for the OP's vehicle will be 90 amps. He won't have any problems with radios.
 

mmckenna

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LOL! My Civic has a 63 amp alternator! :) 63 amps seems to be the magic number for a lot of alternators used in vehicles.

Yeah, I hated that car, was always having to fix something on it.

On the other extreme, I have a Ford pickup with the Diesel engine. The stock alternator is something like 200 amps. There's an option for a 250 or 300 amp alternator and another option to add a second one. There is also a built in "upfitter" module on those trucks that has some features that can be setup by the end user. I have one that connects an existing upfitter switch to the module. That activates a feature where the module will watch 12vdc buss voltage and ramp up the engine RPM if it sees it start to drop below a certain level.
 

techman210

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The few times I’ve suspected “alternator voltage drop under load” issues, it’s been traced to the high current cables between the battery and/or alternator developing higher than normal resistance over their life.

The positive (Red) cables will begin to darken over time, but the return (Black) you won’t notice. To positively diagnose, you’ll have to measure the voltage drop across the cable.

But if the vehicle is over 15 years old, I’d just replace the cables and see if the issues disappear.
 

slowmover

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Upgrading power cable to ensure a voltage drop of less than 3% at mic key-up (engine at idle; this can be a variable where it can be controlled) is ordinary conversation about installation.

You’ll also see it as 1/2-volt (.5-volt). 13.0V or higher.

Once I found myself willing to spend on quality power cables, connections, and fuses the above goal has been easy to meet.

In a big truck it’s a $150-$200 harness (4 or 6-AWG) and that price includes every part of the 12V distribution system.

A car or pickup would be less (my run from BATT to Radio is 3X the length).

Before alternator change find engine rpm = full alternator output and see if a HIGH IDLE provision is possible; upgrade power system to MAX current draw (accounting for efficiency losses).

Alternator output AT IDLE is the key factor, not rated output.

I can bump stationary idle on the Cummins in my Kenworth from 600-rpm to 800 as a minimum. Can go up from there. But even with an 18A working load, 800-rpm suffices (big diesels dont rev past 2,000-rpm, in main; everything happens down low. 260A alternator).

That said, suppliers like MECHMAN offer upgrades for a variety of vehicles. If your engine is used for a commercial vehicle it is “possible” there is an upgrade available (but mounting location and brackets might not work).

SeeMobile Install

.
 
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slowmover

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I ran a FAR more difficult route back to Dallas from Knoxville the past two days. Just to stop at WEST MARINE to pick up another BLUE SEA MRBF fuse to run an inverter.

This cube fuse mounts in a holder which attaches to the battery post. The cable then attaches to the fuse. (Unscrew post cover to mount to BATT).

That part plus two (2) fuses was $67. Might be cheaper online.

No splices. No losses. USCG-approval for marine (tough operating environment).

CF2D479D-8C2F-4BD7-9688-93588738EA29.jpeg
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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Upgrading power cable to ensure a voltage drop of less than 3% at mic key-up (engine at idle; this can be a variable where it can be controlled) is ordinary conversation about installation.

You’ll also see it as 1/2-volt (.5-volt). 13.0V or higher.

Once I found myself willing to spend on quality power cables, connections, and fuses the above goal has been easy to meet.

In a big truck it’s a $150-$200 harness (4 or 6-AWG) and that price includes every part of the 12V distribution system.

A car or pickup would be less (my run from BATT to Radio is 3X the length).

Before alternator change find engine rpm = full alternator output and see if a HIGH IDLE provision is possible; upgrade power system to MAX current draw (accounting for efficiency losses).

Alternator output AT IDLE is the key factor, not rated output.

I can bump stationary idle on the Cummins in my Kenworth from 600-rpm to 800 as a minimum. Can go up from there. But even with an 18A working load, 800-rpm suffices (big diesels dont rev past 2,000-rpm, in main; everything happens down low. 260A alternator).

That said, suppliers like MECHMAN offer upgrades for a variety of vehicles. If your engine is used for a commercial vehicle it is “possible” there is an upgrade available (but mounting location and brackets might not work).

SeeMobile Install

.
Cant you fit a smaller alternator pulley and spin faster at idle?
 

slowmover

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Cant you fit a smaller alternator pulley and spin faster at idle?

Alternators work to design. Extra power at lower rpm is drag, and that may not accommodate engine computer control parameters.

Online vehicle forums are where I’d start. Or, do a search for [vehicle name] custom alternators.
 
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