Why only partially encrypted??

[SquierStrat]

Lets say an entire county uses a radio system, and the sheriffs department in that county use 3 talkgroups. talkgroups 1-2 are unencrypted, and channel 3 is encrypted. Since all of their radios are capable of encryption (since they can all use channel 3), why not just use the encryption on all of their channels?? i mean , it wouldnt be good for us scanner listeners, but from their point of view, i would think it would be a good thing..

So why do they continue to let us listen in on radios that are perfectly capable of encryption?

 

[gewecke]

Lets say an entire county uses a radio system, and the sheriffs department in that county use 3 talkgroups. talkgroups 1-2 are unencrypted, and channel 3 is encrypted. Since all of their radios are capable of encryption (since they can all use channel 3), why not just use the encryption on all of their channels?? i mean , it wouldnt be good for us scanner listeners, but from their point of view, i would think it would be a good thing..

So why do they continue to let us listen in on radios that are perfectly capable of encryption?

Don't complain & don't tell!
It's possible that it was a programming error.

73,
n9zas

 

[GTR8000]

Because some agencies aren't looking to hide their day to day operations, they only want to encrypt the actual sensitive stuff like drug raids, stings, SWAT and whatnot.

I can speak to this personally, the exact scenario you ask about. Our county is almost finished installing a fairly large P25 Phase II system that will support all Police, Fire and EMS in the county. The county's entire fire service is 100% volunteer (3,000+ firefighters) and EMS is a mix of paid day crews and nighttime/weekend volunteers (probably another 800 or so volunteers) with a 24/7 full time paid countywide ALS service. The police dept's have no desire to shut these guys out from listening when they're on or off duty. Many of them listen to the scanner day and night, and can often get a heads up to an incoming call by monitoring the local PD.

The only TG's that will use encryption are a handful of task force TG's used for drug raids, stings, the DA's office, etc.

In fact, many of the head honchos in the county are concerned with the fact that there is no Phase II capable scanner currently on the market, so everyone will effectively be shut out for a while anyway until one is released. Yes, believe it or not, some public officials actually do care about people (including the general public) being able to listen to what is going on in their communities. I know, it's crazy talk in today's world of paranoia and ever increasing encryption of radio systems.

 

[gewecke]

That's good news, compared to the general consensus here in my area!
Each of my area's local pd's have more encrypted tg's than they do those in the clear because of the large number of offenders with smart phones.
The online scanner operated by our EMA was even taken offline because of this.

73,
n9zas

 

[GTR8000]

Yeah, it's really depressing to see the wave of encryption taking place. We've got plenty of beat to death threads about it around here, but overall when I see threads about such and such encrypting, it makes me genuinely sad. I find it somewhat ironic that there is hardly any encryption in this area, the NYC Metro area, including all of NYC themselves...an actual target of terrorism on 9/11...and yet some podunk town in the middle of nowhere can somehow justify needing to encrypt because of "security and terrorism concerns"? As we like to say around these parts...oy vey.

 

[abbadabbado]

terrorist according to the great one that word does not exist. i dont know what you would call these people that does harm to americans on our own soil. our local sheriff was going to encript with the new system being built but sence the feed went off of RR no more cell phone monitoring he is slowly changing his policys. at least with the primary dispatch channels on the west side

 

[ff-medic]

That's good news, compared to the general consensus here in my area!
Each of my area's local pd's have more encrypted tg's than they do those in the clear because of the large number of offenders with smart phones.

Sometimes, if a radio scanner allows, even though you cannot hear the conversations, the "squelch" of a partime encrypted talkgroup/frequency can be informationaly beneficial.

If the "Keyup" of the encrypted radio occurs for awhile, most likely it is something important, or a really good event is occurring ( raid - narc bust...ect ).

Regardless of not being able to hear encrypted radio traffic, one could probably most likely get more information off of the television, or newspaper if something "good" went down. However disheartening to some people, violence - drugs - investigations ; that make media outlets lets the population in that area...with in bounds ; know that their Law Enforcement is doing well. The particulars of the event, events that took place, those arrested; are placed with media outlets to be publically dessiminated. You would, under some conditions, find out more by reading the newspaper, or watching the news, that what you could by listening to encrypted radio traffic.

Remember, depending on output wattage, proximity to radios and tv's, some land mobile radios "Bleed over" onto T.V's and am/fm radios, and other electronics. So communciations security until the "Raid" or the "Bust" begins. Even doing a surveillance, one has to be careful. The squelch knob on a scanner can be of more use than eliminating static. It can be used to determing the range of a transmitting radio...within certain conditions - such as simplex radios...ect.

The online scanner operated by our EMA was even taken offline because of this.

73,
n9zas

Should have kept that scanner. Weather information, Red Cross ( low band ) , quite possibly aircraft monitoring, State Police, DNR, D.O.T, Military and Civil Search and Rescue, and a host of others....that you could have listened to with that scanner.

Where I work, I listen to my County Public Safety ( VHF - High band ) on our base radio, and lock the scanner on the State Police mobiles ( VHF- Low Band ).

Radio scanners, either handheld or base models, are quite useful. Not everyone is encrypted...and will not be for quite some time.

FF- Medic !!!

 

[ff-medic]

terrorist according to the great one that word does not exist.

9/11 should have been a wake up for large factorys and companys, but evidently it was not. Even where I live, security could be muh better at the chemical and industrial manufacturing facilitys than what it is.

IT IS NOT. Cause in my opinion and experience, and from my observations... CEO's and senior individuals responsible for the operations... of companys and factorys, do not want to spend the money to improve on the security and safety of those whom work for them, and create a more proactive stance to protect their property and assets.

I read an article a few years ago, about a terrorist recon, I belive it was New York. Building struicture of the intended target, pedistrian traffic, even the timing of the traffic lights...as to better evade the target area, and to prevent being captured.. was all taken in to account by the terrorist. I have the print out in my spare bed room at home, but right now I cannot find it with "Google"

i dont know what you would call these people that does harm to americans on our own soil.

Terrorist. From the word "Terror".

our local sheriff was going to encript with the new system being built but sence the feed went off of RR no more cell phone monitoring he is slowly changing his policys. at least with the primary dispatch channels on the west side

No need to encrypt everything, I would not belive anyway.

FF - Medic !!!

 

[gewecke]

Sometimes, if a radio scanner allows, even though you cannot hear the conversations, the "squelch" of a partime encrypted talkgroup/frequency can be informationaly beneficial.

If the "Keyup" of the encrypted radio occurs for awhile, most likely it is something important, or a really good event is occurring ( raid - narc bust...ect ).

Regardless of not being able to hear encrypted radio traffic, one could probably most likely get more information off of the television, or newspaper if something "good" went down. However disheartening to some people, violence - drugs - investigations ; that make media outlets lets the population in that area...with in bounds ; know that their Law Enforcement is doing well. The particulars of the event, events that took place, those arrested; are placed with media outlets to be publically dessiminated. You would, under some conditions, find out more by reading the newspaper, or watching the news, that what you could by listening to encrypted radio traffic.

Remember, depending on output wattage, proximity to radios and tv's, some land mobile radios "Bleed over" onto T.V's and am/fm radios, and other electronics. So communciations security until the "Raid" or the "Bust" begins. Even doing a surveillance, one has to be careful. The squelch knob on a scanner can be of more use than eliminating static. It can be used to determing the range of a transmitting radio...within certain conditions - such as simplex radios...ect.



Should have kept that scanner. Weather information, Red Cross ( low band ) , quite possibly aircraft monitoring, State Police, DNR, D.O.T, Military and Civil Search and Rescue, and a host of others....that you could have listened to with that scanner.

Where I work, I listen to my County Public Safety ( VHF - High band ) on our base radio, and lock the scanner on the State Police mobiles ( VHF- Low Band ).

Radio scanners, either handheld or base models, are quite useful. Not everyone is encrypted...and will not be for quite some time.

FF- Medic !!!

Your squelch trick wouldn't work here.

The EMA still has the scanner, but it won't be put back on streaming to the public, but that doesn't bother me since mine is better!

73,
n9zas

 

[ff-medic]

Yeah, it's really depressing to see the wave of encryption taking place. We've got plenty of beat to death threads about it around here, but overall when I see threads about such and such encrypting, it makes me genuinely sad.

Yes. The encryption thread does keep looming doesn't it?


.[/QUOTE]

I find it somewhat ironic that there is hardly any encryption in this area, the NYC Metro area, including all of NYC themselves...an actual target of terrorism on 9/11...and yet some podunk town in the middle of nowhere can somehow justify needing to encrypt because of "security and terrorism concerns"? As we like to say around these parts...oy vey.

Security concerns maybe, but terrorism concerns....possibly. Terrorism concerns, depends on the location, population, and businesses / factorys/plants.

Taylor a communciation system around your agencys needs and not the wants. One or two encryted channels would be nice. One duplex, and one simplex. For a large agency - like Lexington,Ky...maybe more is needed. But at least one encrypted channel does not hurt any agency.

New York City. You can find out volumes of information in a bar or pub, by just listening...or even asking. Follow someone from their work to their favorite bar, eatery, or pub...have some money to buy drinks and food with, and a terrorist ( what does one look like?) is in business. Wanna get some great info ( intelligence for terror ) - go to the library, or use the internet.

Want to be partially anonymous - there is the U.S Mail = Send a Freedom of Infomation Act request.

I believe, had I been a resident of New York City on 9/11, I would have moved soon after. The terrorist act proved one thing - that the United States is vulnerable. Wars come and go, and some people forget them right after they are finished. 9/11 occurs, and soon after, some of the American People put the event in the back of their heads - forgetting the rage and anger it caused, leading to Operation Enduring Freedom. War occurs, and then they want the war to stop-----> cause they forgot 9/11 and the damage it caused, as well as the innocent lives it took. Depressing isn't it.

FF - Medic !!!

 

[ff-medic]

Your squelch trick wouldn't work here.

The EMA still has the scanner, but it won't be put back on streaming to the public, but that doesn't bother me since mine is better!

73,
n9zas

Tou'che WECKE, Tou'che

FF - Medic !!!

 

[ff-medic]

Don't complain & don't tell!
It's possible that it was a programming error.

73,
n9zas

Or an Admin decision, that could change with the next administration / boss. If that is the case, delete that agency from the scan bank.

FF - Medic !!!

 

[gewecke]

Tou'che WECKE, Tou'che

FF - Medic !!!

Ok ,ya know what? Your tin foil hat is a tad bit too tight! At least get my name right, even if your theories are a little off!

Since you seem to be on a tangent about terrorists coming to get us, this should pique you interest! Happy reading! :twisted:

The Probabilities of Large Terrorist Events | Wired Science | Wired.com

73,
n9zas

 

[ff-medic]

Ok ,ya know what? Your tin foil hat is a tad bit too tight! At least get my name right, even if your theories are a little off!

I shortened your name. Sorry.

My theroys......Hmmmm = U.S Military Operation Enduring Freedom, and Operation Iraqi Freedom. The elimination of Usama Bin Laden ( as well as it's media publicity & celebration by U.S citizens ), The U.S Military Invasion of the Middle East, The elimination of top terror leaders due to drone attacks, decreasing taliban control over the civilain populations it once had a grasp on ( Islam ) , and numerous other facts and events.

They will be back.

Since you seem to be on a tangent about terrorists coming to get us......

73,
n9zas

I am serious about another terror attack. A methodical and well researched event.

I am Prior U.S Military. College educated, and have been in Public Safety for about...20 years. I keep track of the news and current events the best I can, and look for little "cliches" and glitches that tell the overall story, instead of what is current. In some instances, I look ahead and plan.

FF - Medic !!!

 

[gewecke]

Hey medic, read the link I posted, it's right on your wavelength! :wink:

73,
n9zas

 

[ff-medic]

Hey medic, read the link I posted, it's right on your wavelength! :wink:

73,
n9zas

I did read it, when you initially posted it.

-------------------------------


Quote = "Our approach is based on three key insights. First, because we are interested only in rare large events, we need only model the structure of the distribution’s right or upper tail, which governs their frequency. This replaces the difficult problem of modeling both the distribution’s body and tail with the less difficult problem of identifying a value…above which a model of the tail alone fits well…

Second, in complex social systems, the correct tail model is typically unknown and a poor choice may lead to severe misestimates of the true probability of a large event. We control for this model uncertainty by considering multiple tail models…

Finally, large fluctuations in the distribution’s upper tail occur precisely where we wish to have the most accuracy, leading to parameter uncertainty. Using a non-parametric bootstrap to simulate the generative process of event sizes, we incorporate the empirical data’s inherent variability into the estimated parameters, weight models by their likelihood under the bootstrap distribution and construct extreme value confidence intervals."

-------------------------------------

Sounds like it is from an over educated idiot, WHOM KNOWS nothing about terrorism.

Accurately predict a terror event. The author needs to be at the White House, advising the President, and
not writing articles...If he is that good.

Respectfully, I have no use for the article, nor do I put any weight in it.

FF - Medic !!!

 

[cherubim]

Full time encryption on all Police and/or EMS channels is overkill. Most of the traffic is dull and routine (especially with the Police). I can understand the need for encryption if the comms contains sensitive information but in most instances such traffic is sent via digital mobiles or MDTs anyway.

Where I live the Police went full time digital encryption about four years ago primarily for political reasons. It wasn't necessary and is causing some major headaches with key management and stolen radios. The criminal element has now made the Police a bigger target for assault and theft of radio equipment since they're now shut out from monitoring their comms. There is also no evidence to suggest that encrypting radio traffic has reduced crime rates at all. If some of the comms traffic was open their would be more people on the lookout and hence the Police could better serve the public.

 

[AC2OY]

I hope your wrong medic...9/11 got real for me when the fighter jets were ripping over my house and I went to the highest point in my town and saw the towers smoking. That is a day or a event I will never forget. I was working night shift and to see and not hear normal air traffic for about a week was just plain creepy. When I saw the fighter jets patrolling and the Apache helicopters I felt a bit more safe.

 

[ff-medic]

I hope your wrong medic....

I hope I am to. One thing a terror attack has, that our adversarys like......IS THE psychological damage.
The bigger the attack, the chances for a larger psychological impact.

When you plan an attack you preplan a few things ( not in order ).

1. The psychological impact.
2. Number of lives loss.
3. Property damage loss, both physical and monetary.
4. Estimated time to recover and rebuild, estimated finances to recover and time and resources needed to rebuild.
5. Overall impact of the attack, and significance of success. How much the attack accomplished, that
was prepanned ( ex - blow up a building - did the whole building collapse, or was the damge restricted
to a few floors ).

..... When I saw the fighter jets patrolling and the Apache helicopters I felt a bit more safe.

Yeah. You felt safe from an air attack. What about a secondary attack from the ground, WHICH is quite possible. An attacked area - Is there any one who "Stands out"? Is there anyone, or a group of people whom look like they do not belong there? Anybody, or group of people who are lurking about who seem out of character, or are not properly dressed ( over dressed = coats - baggy shirts and pants - carrying luggage that makes no sense ). Secondary attacks after a primary attack, that are "geared toward" taking out first responders, is highly probable.

If a "First Responder" is on scene looking in, they need collegues " looking outwards" to protect their back. Just like Law Enforcement on a fight scene. Officers take care of the people fighting ( seperating them & handcuffing them ), and then there is officers facing out, protecing the officers dealing with the combatants, so they ( primary officers ) don't get "jumped from behind" so to speak.

Terrorism is evolving, and evolving very quickly. Rule #1 is = Dont ever underestimate the enemy. Regardless of their society and ethenic background, education, mannerisms, dress, appearance, age and sex. NEVER underestimate the enemy. Doing so will make you a toe tag candiate.

FF - Medic !!!

 

[ff-medic]

There is also no evidence to suggest that encrypting radio traffic has reduced crime rates at all..

The purpose of encrypted traffic is not to reduce crime. The purpose of encrypted radio traffic, is for operational security, and in some instances...Safety of the the public safety personnel - which is of the utmost importance.

Encrypted radio traffic is for =Relaying, receiving, or transmitting sensitive information ; not needed for public broadcast.

Information not needed for public broadcast, or "Immediate" public broadcast = Vehicle collision with fatality(s), found body (deceased) , rape, robbery in progress & burglary in progress ( Some criminals have been documented & reported as using radio scanners in the commission of a crime , This helps prevent "Ambushing" Law Enforcement ; helping criminals in evading capture/arrest ), some medical patients, events and instances involving a child, domestic disputes, arson, fire involving death...and others.

If some of the comms traffic was open their would be more people on the lookout and hence the Police could better serve the public.

And quite possibly, in my experiece - "Rubber neckers" , people who continously drive by the scene in their vehicle...and sometimes wreck their vehicles from not paying attention to driving..but staring at the incident scene ( this has happend before ), innocent bystanders who show up at incidents..and could be subject to increased danger of the affected area/scene, scanner listeners who commit to false reporting and or relaying of incorrect& misunderstood scanner information, over the telephone....causing unnecessary panic to freinds and or relatives ( that has happened before ), influx of significant pedastrian and or vehicle traffic at a incident scene / incident area&location.

As I have said before in previous threads - Encryption has it's place, and NEED in Public Safety. I have the experience to back that up.

FF - Medic !!!