WorkPlace Antenna

[atomicchewbacca]

Hello I was wondering if anyone would have any suggestions for a nice antenna that could be inside of an office. I’m right beside the windows but this building was built in 1961 and it seems to block my signals pretty good. I tried a little Tram antenna inside the office but im coming over a bit quite , even running about 20 watts . Are there any good brands anyone could recommend or perhaps a decent UHF amp that wont break the bank ?
Thanks !

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

Hi Atomic
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(I like that name, btw- it's the title of one of my favorite "Blondie" tunes from the '80's.... )
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I'd of thought you'd have quite a few suggestions by now... maybe we can generate some activity.
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Its a good question, but you'll need to provide some more parameters- Like:
What are you using this radio for?.. is it very local simplex, or are you also trying to get into repeaters, what floor of the building are you on, is the window line-of-sight to any sort of horizon, is your window facing to or away from the intended station(s)...?
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There maybe some fixes that will work for you - but also be prepared for disappointment. If the Power-That- Be in your organization don't favor anything fancy, (like running a cable outside, up to the roof etc.) you just might have to live within the limitations.
One thing I'd caution against- if you can't communicate with 20 watts you would have to go to a much high'r power (too high a power) to make any differences from what you can do now. Do you really want to be sitting close to *that* radiating thing?... not to mention how this might effect office computers, printers and other data stuff in the building.
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If it were me, I'd try making a small vertical dipole, cut out of aluminium foil, taping it to your most favorable window and seeing how that worked.
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Perhaps others have some suggestions- but I'll discourage that higher power route.
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Good luck
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Lauri

 

[atomicchewbacca]

Thank you for the reply .
The building itself was built in 1961 so the walls are pretty thick . I’m on the first floor of two. I also have a row of building right across the street from where my office is . Sometimes i can hit the repeaters but its very broken . Yeah in the end there may be little i can do with the office . I have started to look into alternatives as well such as DMR hotspot or echo link . The windows are an old swing out type too and would let out too much AC for it work like that .
The computer already makes some noise with the 20w out so yeah more power might do more harm than good. I already cant get much if any updated equipment , the last thing I need to do is break what i already got lol.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Assuming you can install an antenna at or near roof level and run a cable down to the window. There are some solutions to getting RF through a window.

1) A 72 Ohm flat cable. Yes you can run your 20 watt radio into a low cost 72 Ohm cable and even make the entire run with RG6/U cable TV cable and your radio will not mind. It is cheap, low loss and all you need are two F to UHF/or/N connector adapters to fit your radio and antenna. The flat cable goes under a windowsill or door jamb. The construction must be wood or vinyl clad wood as metal will attenuate with the signal.

https://www.parts-express.com/parts...source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla

You can spend way more money and do it with 50 Ohm impedance if you wish.

https://www.amazon.com/CTC-50M-Original-Comet-Window-Feed-Thru/dp/B005OEB3IA

2) There are antennas that use a through glass coupler and those can get the signal outside, but you still will have the problem of building shadowing. These won't work with metalized glass or thermopane glass.

3) There are various patents for through glass RF couplers, though I cannot find a commercial product. I thought MFJ might have one. Basically it is a pair of RF couplers (tuned coil) like used in a glass mount antenna feed and they couple the signal magnetically through the glass. If you can find some used glass mount antennas for your radio band you could pair up two of these. Otherwise it might be an easy home brew project if you have test equipment.

4) There is a passive approach and that is to run a vertical wire alongside the building to re radiate signals to your CLOSE BY radio antenna. This is often done in tunnels.

5) If you have metal ductwork for the AC system that runs throughout the building, you can try putting a 1/4 wave mag mount inside the nearest duct and enjoy distributed waveguide propagation. This works best at UHF and above.

6) there is always the caveman solution and that is to rent a hammer drill from Home Depot, come in on a weekend and knock a nice clean hole in the masonry. Clean it all up and proudly show your boss the hole you "discovered".

I should mention grounding and bonding as it will be important to keep lightning from finding your radio and office equipment. Solution 4 will require a choke between the passive radiator and the grounding point.

PS; If this is UHF and you have any kind of a view, you can use a yagi and bounce signals from the windows of buildings across the way. They dont have to be close, in fact having some distance might help. It is like playing pool with a bank shot so YMMV.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

I loved the 'Caveman Approach"...lol......
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I actually tried that once-- in my temporary quarters (they called then 'BQ's") on Kwajalein Atoll. I wanted to try a little ham radio using a tuner and a random wire out to a palm tree. The problem was that all the windows were sealed shut to keep in the AC (and that AC was set to Brutal !-- One thing I always advised people to bring on these trips were sweat shirts.... 60 degrees inside-- and a quarter inch away -- the 80's....... but anyhow......)
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I got this brilliant idea of drilling a hole thru the glass pane using a slow speed copper rotary bit with some grinding compound.... and it worked perfectly-- that is, until I was backing out the drill and angle-torqued the glass just right-- it was temper'd glass...and......
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Kristallnacht ! .........all over my room..........!
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I stuffed a blanket into the damage and called the building people.
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"Ahhh, I have a broken window in my (blank) BQ"
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They sent some guys over-- they never asked me a question- they reglazed a new pane in place, smiled, and left. I later learned that many of those seal'd windows often suffer'd similar fates as the AC drove people wild.
__________________________________________
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Back on topic, I have another suggestion too--
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You can get one of those crossband VHF/UHF, UHF/VHF transceivers, install it in your vehicle and operate it as a remote base, I don't think the car's battery would suffer at all. Then from inside the building you'd only need a little handheld.....
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Lauri

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I loved the 'Caveman Approach"...lol......
.
.
I actually tried that once-- in my temporary quarters (they called then 'BQ's") on Kwajalein Atoll. I wanted to try a little ham radio using a tuner and a random wire out to a palm tree. The problem was that all the windows were sealed shut to keep in the AC (and that AC was set to Brutal !-- One thing I always advised people to bring on these trips were sweat shirts.... 60 degrees inside-- and a quarter inch away -- the 80's....... but anyhow......)
.
I got this brilliant idea of drilling a hole thru the glass pane using a slow speed copper rotary bit with some grinding compound.... and it worked perfectly-- that is, until I was backing out the drill and angle-torqued the glass just right-- it was temper'd glass...and......
.
Kristallnacht ! .........all over my room..........!
.
I stuffed a blanket into the damage and called the building people.
.
"Ahhh, I have a broken window in my (blank) BQ"
.
They sent some guys over-- they never asked me a question- they reglazed a new pane in place, smiled, and left. I later learned that many of those seal'd windows often suffer'd similar fates as the AC drove people wild.
__________________________________________
.
Back on topic, I have another suggestion too--
.
You can get one of those crossband VHF/UHF, UHF/VHF transceivers, install it in your vehicle and operate it as a remote base, I don't think the car's battery would suffer at all. Then from inside the building you'd only need a little handheld.....
.
.
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Lauri

I would never have been so brave! Now THEY know, look out for a bill in the mail!

I had a 15 passenger Ford van, semi converted for a cross country camping trip. Just outside Estes Park, while driving, the huge side window of tempered glass exploded. Literally like a bomb hit, and a sudden decompression of the van. A $1500 sheet of special dark tinted glass covered by Ford warranty. I was told, it only takes a tiny scratch. I kept finding 1/8 inch cubes of glass every time I cleaned the van until I traded it in.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[atomicchewbacca]

Those are some great suggestions , well at least most of them are. I will have to look into it more and maybe I can get something set up on the roof. Its a bit picky though as the place is about to go through some management changes in the next couple of months.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

Your blown out van window brought back a memory.
Here is another one, about as good as drilling a hole thru a window pane.
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I know this goes completely off topic, but I promise- no more stories after this.. I Promise ! !
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A few summers ago we were working on a project out in the deserts of Nevada- Nellis Air Force Base to be exact- where the summer heat makes its the nearest thing to this side of Hell.
The day time temperatures can easily reach above 110; its the kind of heat that destroys a vehicle's tires driving on asphalt so hot that it can fry things.
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My engineering pardner and I need to traverse a part of the Base used for aircraft live fire exercises- and anyone with experience on these test ranges know those super sonic jets can come streaking out of nowhere-- often just skimming the earth-- scaring the BeeJeezus out of us !
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That day, however, we had all our clearances and assurances that we were not venturing into something 4th of July, .... part of that safety protocol being a radio to the Range Control.
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Neither of us had ever given much thought to the big spare tire mounted along the inside portion of the vehicle's rear compartment. Perhaps we should have.........
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..........While driving, windows closed, air conditioner blasting... right out into the middle of the gunnery range.... all of a sudden there was deafening "Ka-BLAMM"
My ears popped, all I could hear was a loud buzz... the back tailgate window was blown out, having disappeared into a million little pieces of glass that were flying everywhere. My friend gave out a scream, then a curse- as she instantly pulled the vehicle over to the side of the road and down into a deep ditch....
"They're shooting at us !! " she shouted
On the radio "Tell them not to shoot at the white ute !!" I yelled
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(we were being "very vocal," to put it politely.)
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"Ma'm, there is no activity out in that sector now, no one is firing at you"
.
.
Well, you guess'd it-- that spare tire had blown out from the heat.. taking out the rear window, our hearing and most of all, our dignity. We decide that was enuff for the day and head'd back for something stronger than the warm Cokes we'd brought along.
.
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The kind people at the Base didn't let us live that down for the rest of our summer's project. At its completion, in those fun ceremonies that mark the end of a 'mission (I truly love this about the military )... we were each presented with a 'medal,' made in a machine shop ... upon them etch'd "for bravery under fire"-- dangling from their ribbons, each were in the shape of tires....
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Lauri
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[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Your blown out van window brought back a memory.
Here is another one, about as good as drilling a hole thru a window pane.
.
I know this goes completely off topic, but I promise- no more stories after this.. I Promise ! !
.
.
A few summers ago we were working on a project out in the deserts of Nevada- Nellis Air Force Base to be exact- where the summer heat makes its the nearest thing to this side of Hell.
The day time temperatures can easily reach above 110; its the kind of heat that destroys a vehicle's tires driving on asphalt so hot that it can fry things.
.
My engineering pardner and I need to traverse a part of the Base used for aircraft live fire exercises- and anyone with experience on these test ranges know those super sonic jets can come streaking out of nowhere-- often just skimming the earth-- scaring the BeeJeezus out of us !
.
That day, however, we had all our clearances and assurances that we were not venturing into something 4th of July, .... part of that safety protocol being a radio to the Range Control.
.
Neither of us had ever given much thought to the big spare tire mounted along the inside portion of the vehicle's rear compartment. Perhaps we should have.........
.
..........While driving, windows closed, air conditioner blasting... right out into the middle of the gunnery range.... all of a sudden there was deafening "Ka-BLAMM"
My ears popped, all I could hear was a loud buzz... the back tailgate window was blown out, having disappeared into a million little pieces of glass that were flying everywhere. My friend gave out a scream, then a curse- as she instantly pulled the vehicle over to the side of the road and down into a deep ditch....
"They're shooting at us !! " she shouted
On the radio "Tell them not to shoot at the white ute !!" I yelled
.
(we were being "very vocal," to put it politely.)
.
"Ma'm, there is no activity out in that sector now, no one is firing at you"
.
.
Well, you guess'd it-- that spare tire had blown out from the heat.. taking out the rear window, our hearing and most of all, our dignity. We decide that was enuff for the day and head'd back for something stronger than the warm Cokes we'd brought along.
.
.
The kind people at the Base didn't let us live that down for the rest of our summer's project. At its completion, in those fun ceremonies that mark the end of a 'mission (I truly love this about the military )... we were each presented with a 'medal,' made in a machine shop ... upon them etch'd "for bravery under fire"-- dangling from their ribbons, each were in the shape of tires....
.
.
Lauri
.
.

Yikes! That does call for some strong booze! Are you sure they weren't testing one of those directed energy weapons at you? There is a guy from San Jose on the Survival Boards that is sure the Gummint is tracking him with one.

 

[TheSpaceMann]

Hello I was wondering if anyone would have any suggestions for a nice antenna that could be inside of an office. I’m right beside the windows but this building was built in 1961 and it seems to block my signals pretty good. I tried a little Tram antenna inside the office but im coming over a bit quite , even running about 20 watts . Are there any good brands anyone could recommend or perhaps a decent UHF amp that wont break the bank ?
Thanks !

For Vhf/Uhf, a small portable beam can work well even indoors! I've used the ELK 2m/440 with good results. www.ElkAntennas.com For HF, a small 24 foot end fed can also work OK as a compromise antenna. I often use the Ultimax-100 inside hotel rooms when I travel! ULTIMAX ANTENNAS LLC. - Home

 

[atomicchewbacca]

Those are some great stories . Also thanks for all the suggestions , I will be looking through them more for sure and doing more research on them. The elk antenna looks pretty neat too especially to have in an office. If i knew it would work for sure I would get one. Thanks again !

 

[TheSpaceMann]

Those are some great stories . Also thanks for all the suggestions , I will be looking through them more for sure and doing more research on them. The elk antenna looks pretty neat too especially to have in an office. If i knew it would work for sure I would get one. Thanks again !

It should definitely work! I just mount it on a broomstick and bungee it to a chair! I am able to hit repeaters 50+ miles away. The antenna is portable, and assembles in just minutes!!

 

[prcguy]

Have you contacted your management about having a sanctioned antenna on the roof for emergency communications? Its to your companies advantage to consider this having a licensed amateur on site providing his own equipment that can benefit the company and its employees during an emergency.

I did this a long time ago and enjoyed having HF through 70cm for the last 18yrs I worked. At one point I had a 94ft ZS6BKW HF dipole, an HF vertical with auto tuner at the base, a tri-band Comet VHF/UHF vertical and wide band Discone on one building I worked in, all wired into my office desk.

At another building at the same site I had two 30ft light poles 200ft apart with ropes and pulleys at the top to raise and lower various HF antennas plus a Cushcraft 20-6m vertical and tri band VHF/UHF vertical plus the Discone. My desk at work was always full of HF and VHF radios running most of the day and management never bothered me about it.

My upper management also changed several times over the years and new management just accepted that I was the emergency radio guy for our site and let it roll. You will never know what you can get away with until you ask.

 

[atomicchewbacca]

Very true I will try to take some time and ask them to see what they say. It would be nice, and there is a similar place where I live that even has a repeater on top of theirs. I'm just trying to think how it would work , we have some less than good folk that walk around the area at times and I'm sure they would happily pull at any exposed cables just to be doing that. I will be sure to try and ask though .

 

[majoco]

CF's first post....

If it were me, I'd try making a small vertical dipole, cut out of aluminium foil, taping it to your most favorable window and seeing how that worked.

.... works well except its a b****r of a thing to get a good electrical joint. We used it on the aircraft band from our sunken tarmac office with only skinny horizontal windows just above ground level BUT we 'obtained' a small roll of copper sticky tape that was used many years ago to make prototype PC boards - ISTR it was called "Cir-kit" or something like that - worked a treat although do solder the coax onto the tape before sticking it up!

Another option - although you'll need serendipity on your side - is an aluminium window frame of just the right size - and do some reading on skeleton slots.....

Sorry Lauri - force of habit - must start calling you LC now - perhaps "Elsie"

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

CF's first post....



.... works well except its a b****r of a thing to get a good electrical joint. We used it on the aircraft band from our sunken tarmac office with only skinny horizontal windows just above ground level BUT we 'obtained' a small roll of copper sticky tape that was used many years ago to make prototype PC boards - ISTR it was called "Cir-kit" or something like that - worked a treat although do solder the coax onto the tape before sticking it up!

Another option - although you'll need serendipity on your side - is an aluminium window frame of just the right size - and do some reading on skeleton slots.....

Sorry Lauri - force of habit - must start calling you LC now - perhaps "Elsie"

One of my first jobs was installing burglar alarms. We sometimes installed a tape backed foil to windows for detecting glass breakage. We had some terminals designed to land the connections. They were attached with cement or double sided tape. I have a tool somewhere with a tiny spur wheel we used to score through layers of tape to connect splices.

On a similar subject , the guy who trained me was from NYC and one of his friends had an electronics store on the first floor of a building. He was having difficulty demonstrating transistor radios so my co worker put alarm window foil around the glass top of a display case and ran 300 ohm twin lead to an FM radio antenna all the way up on the roof. The display case now had reliable signal so they could play the radios. I hope they grounded the antenna because a lightning storm might spoil a sale!

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[Golay]

Atomic: You say you're using a Tram antenna of some sort with limited result. Unless I missed it swimming thru the War and Peace replies, what are you working the antenna against? Is this an antenna on a mag mount? If so, what's the mag mount on? Or do you have some sort of base antenna in the office? Thanks.

 

[atomicchewbacca]

Hey Golay , the antenna is a mag mount and I do have a round piece of metal that stick it too. It’s steel .Its got a 1ft diameter . Here is a link too the antenna TRAM 1185-FSMA Amateur Dual-Band Magnet Antenna with SMA-Female Connector https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DY8FNE2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_r5NnBb5WNA9KD So far I haven’t been able to try any solutions my budget for any purchase is $0 . I will try them when the time comes .

 

[majoco]

It’s steel .Its got a 1ft diameter .

Not big enough - it needs to be at least a half-wavelength diameter.

 

[cmdrwill]

Not big enough - it needs to be at least a half-wavelength diameter.

Yup, someone forgot the other half of the antenna. The counterpoise or 'groundplane' which needs to be at least one quarter wave in ALL directions. IE on half wave in diameter.

And do not forget the rules on RF Exposure Limits.

B+ to Ground, OVER.