XTS-5000 Talkgroup Scanning

[busunlimited]

Can an XTS-5000 scan talkgroups as shown in this video? Will this work with USA systems?

Motorola ASTRO 25 Radios, How to scan a trunking network - YouTube

I am considering buying an XTS-5000. I would gladly make the purchase if it can talkgroup scan P25 systems. I am OK if it can not do this for Analog systems.

I am a former firefighter and paramedic. I live now in Polk county FL. I recently purchased a $500+ digital scanner and it has major reception problems. I would like to be able to tune in a listen to fire and ems and will gladly spend the money for an XTS-5000 if it can talk group scan Polk county's digital P25 system. I have purchased much motorola software (from motorola) in the past and have contacted motorola about the XTS-5000 software and it is available for only $265.

Does the method in the video really work? Can it work with US systems? I am only interested in appropriate methods that are not illegal or dangerous.

 

[IAmSixNine]

Interesting Video.. Dont know if it will work but it was a good watch..

 

[seberry]

From a user standpoint this isn't the best way to do it... Using the hidden talkgroup method is. The only problem with the hidden talkgroup method is that it requires a system key, but those are pretty easy to generate anyway. If you have any questions about this method, PM me.

 

[KE4ZNR]

http://forums.radioreference.com/mo...ou-want-monitor-trunked-system-moto-read.html

 

[seberry]

“…unless you have been personally authorized, there is no chance that you will be able to obtain the system key.”

Wrong. There are many ways to obtain a system key. One is to simply educate yourself with Google. Search “Motorola System Key” and just read.

---

“Assuming the radio is programmed correctly, there remains a hurdle to be cleared: Affiliation. When the radio is placed on a Trunked system, it sends an announcement to the system controller containing its Radio ID”

Wrong. This is assuming the radio is programmed INCORRECTLY. If you use the hidden TG method, there is no chance of affiliation, sorry.

---

“If you programmed your radio with an ID number that matches a legitimate radio's ID, you put the operator in serious danger of missing critical communications or being unable to call for help - this can lead to injury or death!”

Wrong again. This is why you just leave the ID to 000001. You won’t be affiliating so it won’t even matter.

---

“what's the risk vs the return? The return is slightly better audio quality from a Motorola Radio.”

Try MUCH better audio. There is nothing like sitting in the car with your xts and listening clearly while your crappy scanner is sitting there choking on the garbled mess.

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“Is it really worth it?”

100x yes, provided you can afford the equipment and CPS costs.

---

“if you need to ask here how to program a Motorola radio for receive-only on a trunked system, you probably aren't qualified to be doing it.”

It’s really interesting that this is said on a hobbyist site. Imagine if someone came here looking to program a scanner and you said “If you need to ask, you probably are too stupid.”

 

[kb0uxv]

“…unless you have been personally authorized, there is no chance that you will be able to obtain the system key.”

Wrong. There are many ways to obtain a system key. One is to simply educate yourself with Google. Search “Motorola System Key” and just read.

---

“Assuming the radio is programmed correctly, there remains a hurdle to be cleared: Affiliation. When the radio is placed on a Trunked system, it sends an announcement to the system controller containing its Radio ID”

Wrong. This is assuming the radio is programmed INCORRECTLY. If you use the hidden TG method, there is no chance of affiliation, sorry.

---

“If you programmed your radio with an ID number that matches a legitimate radio's ID, you put the operator in serious danger of missing critical communications or being unable to call for help - this can lead to injury or death!”

Wrong again. This is why you just leave the ID to 000001. You won’t be affiliating so it won’t even matter.

---

“what's the risk vs the return? The return is slightly better audio quality from a Motorola Radio.”

Try MUCH better audio. There is nothing like sitting in the car with your xts and listening clearly while your crappy scanner is sitting there choking on the garbled mess.

---

“Is it really worth it?”

100x yes, provided you can afford the equipment and CPS costs.

---

“if you need to ask here how to program a Motorola radio for receive-only on a trunked system, you probably aren't qualified to be doing it.”

It’s really interesting that this is said on a hobbyist site. Imagine if someone came here looking to program a scanner and you said “If you need to ask, you probably are too stupid.”

Busunlimited, These type of posts always go off topic so don’t feel beat up. This debate will go back and fourth for eternity, between the scanner enthusiasts who want to better simulcast performance (and/or look cool) with a Motorola versus users/programmers/admins who want to protect the security of their systems. Surely you can understand why some here are passionate about pushing scanners. The difference between asking how to program a scanner and how to use a commercial radio with a hacked key is rather obvious to me. People are intentionally interfering with trunked systems and the problem seems to be getting worse.

 

[busunlimited]

From a user standpoint this isn't the best way to do it... Using the hidden talkgroup method is. The only problem with the hidden talkgroup method is that it requires a system key, but those are pretty easy to generate anyway. If you have any questions about this method, PM me.

So are you saying this WILL WORK! If it does I am willing to start buying the hardware and software to implement this method.

I cannot and will not have anything to do with any method that uses a system key and I will purchase all software directly from Motorola. The system key method is not an option.

So will/does the method in the video work?

 

[busunlimited]

Busunlimited, These type of posts always go off topic so don’t feel beat up. This debate will go back and fourth for eternity, between the scanner enthusiasts who want to better simulcast performance (and/or look cool) with a Motorola versus users/programmers/admins who want to protect the security of their systems. Surely you can understand why some here are passionate about pushing scanners. The difference between asking how to program a scanner and how to use a commercial radio with a hacked key is rather obvious to me. People are intentionally interfering with trunked systems and the problem seems to be getting worse.

Yes you are right there is often a debate between the two camps. But I have both? I started this post because my new $500+ scanner was not effectively picking up FIRE/EMS in the local county. I have made so changes and now I am at about 85%, however, I would still like to implement the video method if it will work (likely it will cost about $1000 in hardware and software)? Why?

I am told that my new scanner will NOT receive Orange County Florida after conversion to X2-TDMA! On the other hand my scanner is suppose to automatically change scanning to local public service as I drive across the country (w/GPS). So there is room for both scanners and radios.

 

[seberry]

The system key method is not an option.

So will/does the method in the video work?

Yes, it does work, but it only works for listening to one tower at a time, and you have to do some work to get the NACs for the tower you want to listen to (having a scanner helps a lot when you are first programming your radio). Once you do get it set up, you will probably be happy with the method described in the video. If you need help, you can pm me anytime.

 

[kb0uxv]

Yes you are right there is often a debate between the two camps. But I have both? I started this post because my new $500+ scanner was not effectively picking up FIRE/EMS in the local county. I have made so changes and now I am at about 85%, however, I would still like to implement the video method if it will work (likely it will cost about $1000 in hardware and software)? Why?

I am told that my new scanner will NOT receive Orange County Florida after conversion to X2-TDMA! On the other hand my scanner is suppose to automatically change scanning to local public service as I drive across the country (w/GPS). So there is room for both scanners and radios.

I heard there is a new GRE unit that will do x2 TDMA. Also beaware that your XTS5000 will also not work on x2 when your county upgrades - you would need an APX model flashed for x2 for it to pick up anything, and do to time slots I don't know if the video method of talkgroup scan would work in that environment.

 

[R8000]

“

Wrong.

Wrong. sorry.

Wrong again.

”

Looks like I need to start pushing encryption again with new systems I put in *sigh*. For all of those who get disappointed due to an agency going encrypted, you can thank people like seberry.

Even with your uber cool responses on here, there is still a flaw in your way of thinking.

What happens when your asked by an officer why you have a police radio ?

Reality is, most police officers know their radio as a tool for the job, and don't care how it works. They don't know the difference if it's a receive only radio or not. If they have been jammed or interfered with in the past, all that will go through their mind is to know why you have a radio like theirs, and why can he hear his own dispatch on it. All he has to do is take your radio and key it up. If he's granted a channel...your done. If he's "bonked" , he will check into it further.

If he decides to keep a hold of your radio and bring into their radio shop to ask the question "can this radio interfere with our radio?" All the radio tech has to do is see the codeplug and go "yup". Your toast.

So yea, your uber cool XTS5000 makes for a good receiver, and you look impressive with it on but someday, your going to be in the wrong spot at the wrong time and be suspected of interfering with public safety communications.

But then again what do I know, I only build, maintain and administer public safety radio systems. You...just operate a scanner.

In the years I have been doing this, I have seen...I guess 9 radios be brought in, suspected of being able to transmit on systems. All 9 times it's been "yes, this radio is capable of interfering with your system". That's all the investigator want to know. Your toast. The police agency usually doesn't care how their systems work, only that they do work. They turn to their radio shop or contracted vendor for expert advice.

Perhaps I am being a bit blunt here, but there is no way to sugar coat the fact you should use a scanner for monitoring trunked systems.

Matt
Motorola Solutions
Senior Systems Technician

 

[IAmSixNine]

Typical Response Matt. I mean Senior Systems Technician.
"What happens when your asked by an officer why you have a police radio ?"
This has happened to me. The officer asked me why i was carrying a Police radio and i looked at him and smiled and said, No Sir, your carrying a fire department radio. Or is it a Public Works Radio, or perhaps a Sanitation Radio. Since they ALL Look Alike its hard for both of us to tell.
I then told him it was my UHF 380 to 470 Mhz portable and was programmable to anything i wanted to put in it in that frequency range, minus encryption. Told him i worked at a moto shop for 7 years, was a volunteer FF for 5 years and told him if he ever needed radio consulting or work done to ask for my help.

But i also will agree you do have some valid points. As a system admin your job is to keep your system and your radios operating, and having untrained people out there with the radios, keys and software can cause harm on your system.

Each side of the argument has valid points. I think we all just need to agree to disagree and move on.
I guess i am one of the lucky ones who has actually helped police and fire depts with their radios.
Matt, i do congratulate you on running a fine system, but not all agencies have a Matt working for them. Its nice to see a Radio Admin who actually knows his stuff and takes pride in his work. Ive run into countless officers who had the wrong antennas on their radios and they got them from the city or county radio shop. Ive actually heard several officers leave a city radio shop only to check back into service on the wrong channel, because the programming was not correct.

 

[seberry]

Ahh yes, I was perfectly aware that this thread would quickly turn into a debate about whether or not it's OK to do this.

“For all of those who get disappointed due to an agency going encrypted, you can thank people like seberry.”

Yes, I’m a terrible person who has an XTS on my desk that can receive-only some channels in a more competent matter than a scanner... Sorry.

“Even with your uber cool responses on here, there is still a flaw in your way of thinking. What happens when your asked by an officer why you have a police radio?”

Well, I, like most people on this forum don’t walk around with a scanner on my belt, let alone a radio. When was the last time you saw someone do that? In my case, it basically sits on my desk where my scanner does.

“But then again what do I know, I only build, maintain and administer public safety radio systems. You...just operate a scanner. “

Oh you and your underhanded comments.

It's unfortunate we can't have a technical discussion on this forum without it turning into a radio po-po circle jerk.

 

[exkalibur]

Matt, are you serious? With all due respect (and no offence or personal attacks intended), but it is due to people with attitudes like that, that people can't speak openly about how to do things properly.

Instead of telling people the reasons why they shouldn't do it or telling them they're wrong or any other such things - perhaps we should be telling them how to do it properly? The simple fact is that if someone wants to use a Motorola radio on a trunked system, they're going to do it one way or another. As a systems admin, wouldn't you rather they do it in an educated way that won't cause problems on your system? In other words, why not educate on how to make the radio NOT transmit and NOT cause problems, rather than take the chance of someone not listening to your advice and just doing what they "think" works?

At the end of the day, if someone has spent some good money on an eBay radio, I doubt very highly that they're going to just say "oh well, time to sell and buy something else I guess" - no, they're going to figure out how to make it do what they want - for better or for worse.

Personally, I agree - scanners are the way to go - but there's always going to be people who believe otherwise. I believe it is in the best interest for everyone to accept that fact and do whatever you can as a professional to ensure there's /zero/ chance of them causing issues on any system.

Also, "What happens when your asked by an officer why you have a police radio ?". Well, I guess I could change the question to "What happens when you are asked by an officer who you have a police car ?" In reference to "Dream car : 2005 Ford Crown Victoria P71 or a Chevy Suburban". An XTS5000 is /not/ a Police Radio. The Fire Department and Ambulance service use them up here, so I guess they're also fire radios and medic radios? Or what about the search and rescue techs that use them on VHF?

 

[SKEYGEN]

What happens when your asked by an officer why you have a police radio ?

You avoid the situation by being discreet, and not wandering around like a wacker with your local police dispatch channel blaring at full volume.

If asked, you say something along the lines of this:

"This is a commercial off the shelf two way radio, and radios of this model are used by many organisations, including yours. It was manufactured in 2003, and I picked it up off the legitimate surplus market when the original owner retired it after it was in use for about seven years. It's not capable of transmitting on police frequencies; here, try keying it up and see for yourself."

If he decides to keep a hold of your radio and bring into their radio shop to ask the question "can this radio interfere with our radio?" All the radio tech has to do is see the codeplug and go "yup". Your toast.

That's so completely and utterly ridiculous that I don't know where to start. What would they charge the owner of radio with? Way to get laughed out the door by the DA!

There are no legal implications unless you actually DO cause interference with someone else's radio system, and they (or the FCC) can prove that you did so. Being in possession of some piece of equipment that theoretically could cause interference if used improperly is not a criminal offence.

That said, if you can cite just one law of this nature applicable in Columbia County, WI I will retract this comment.

Matt
Motorola Solutions
Senior Systems Technician

Really? My sources tell me there is no Matthew Orr employed at Motorola Solutions.

Motorola also has a social media policy that, if you did actually work for them, you'd be in breach of because I'd bet good money that you would have been authorised by the company's PR department to comment publicly on behalf of the company, especially with such gross factual errors.

 

[APX7500X2]

Can an XTS-5000 scan talkgroups as shown in this video? Will this work with USA systems?

Motorola ASTRO 25 Radios, How to scan a trunking network - YouTube

I am considering buying an XTS-5000. I would gladly make the purchase if it can talkgroup scan P25 systems. I am OK if it can not do this for Analog systems.

Does the method in the video really work? Can it work with US systems? I am only interested in appropriate methods that are not illegal or dangerous.

It will work and does work GREAT!!! Go to P25 Forums for info on how to do it from nice people who weed out the radio police

 

[CCHLLM]

Was there a point to Mattie Boy's diatribe? Whatever, the YouTube method does work and, like a scanner, it is an effectively passive method. If you can follow simple directions such as in the video or the P25 forums, no system controller or system administrator will ever have a clue that you are listening to the system, whether it's on a scanner or on an XTS5K. Then there's the question of whether or not you are legally in possession of the software as well as the system key. What does your personal integrity say?

Point is, if you find a legal way to listen to the system through a passive method that does not actively engage the system, that has no operational effect on the system, that is not banned by law, and if you don't illegally act upon the information you garner from your listening activities, then the "radio police" objections are moot. However, if you are ignorant enough, or worse, STUPID enough to attract legal attention to your activities, then you are too stupid to be away from your mother and you deserve every questioning and every legal action you attract. Everyone with a modicum of common sense knows that, while ignorance is repairable, you just can't fix stupid.

 

[kb0uxv]

Mars would not allow system admins/owners/users to defend their systems on the other website (do to the spirit of that site), whereas RR admins seem more receptive to letting us try here. Hence the difference between those two websites, and why a "technical discussion" on the topic over here results in this debate - more about ethics and legality than technical.

If you take the time to read that thread on the other site you will see how many mistakes are being made, and how these people have no clue on CPS, or the system side for that matter.

I agree with CCHLLM that if you did talkgroup scan, as described in above video, or scanned the voice channels with TX disabled then there would be no chance of harming the system and no issues with possession of the system key.

The problem with m.sys scan methods is the simple difference between channel 16 and 17 between affiliation. What I have found is someone will pick a new RID when they find 000001 rejects, and you all know what happens next. Sometimes they do it just to pull in TGs that would not normally be on that site, not having any knowledge or care about site loading. Other times its to intentionally interfere and transmit on the the Tsys.

I can't speak to WI but in MN possession of a radio with a loaded key can be prosecuted.

 

[greenthumb]

Really? My sources tell me there is no Matthew Orr employed at Motorola Solutions.

He works at an MSS, not for the company. I'm not sure why he needs to mis-represent himself.

Motorola also has a social media policy that, if you did actually work for them, you'd be in breach of because I'd bet good money that you would have been authorised by the company's PR department to comment publicly on behalf of the company, especially with such gross factual errors.

Correct. He may even get himself into trouble being an employee of an MSS mis-representing himself as a Motorola Solutions employee. One would be surprised at how many industry players read these forums! It's a small world....you gotta be careful.

 

[SKEYGEN]

Mars would not allow system admins/owners/users to defend their systems on the other website (do to the spirit of that site), whereas RR admins seem more receptive to letting us try here.

I read p25.ca occasionally, and have seen no evidence of this. A few searches also turned up nothing. Could you point to a post where a system admin/owner/user has been censured?

I can't speak to WI but in MN possession of a radio with a loaded key can be prosecuted.

Prosecuted, maybe, but there will only be a conviction if the defense attorney is an idiot.

It's not until that first affiliate request with a bogus ID leaves the radio and hits the trunking system that any crimes have been committed, which in that case is against both the FCC's legislation and state computer crime law.

A system key only authenticates the user to an application running on their own computer. The system key is used only by CPS to decide whether you should be allowed to create a trunking personality with a particular system ID, and in the case of ASK can be used to impose various other constraints within CPS; it plays no part in the authentication of your radio to the trunking system. Indeed, Icom P25 gear requires no system key of any sort at all.

There may, but not necessarily, be copyright infringement or breach of contract involved in the method used to generate the system key or obtain software required to program the radio, but that's another matter.