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XTS5000 Non-Affiliated Scan Question

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MoDogUser

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#1
I recently programmed an XTS 5000 for use as a non-affiliated scanner using a Youtube video. This works great for one talk group but will not scan other groups. In other words if I want to listen to a city PD that has police 1, police 2, and police 3 talk groups I have to set the knob on Police 1, 2 , or 3 even when the scan switch is off. The video I used stated that there was a way to do that but did not go into it. All the other videos I looked at contained the same information. Can someone help me fine the info? Thanks!
 

lacoscannerguy

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#2
Sounds like you may have missed a step or two.

1) Set up the trunking system and personality (sounds like you accomplished this if you are hearing a talkgroup).
2) Set up conventional channels (one channel for each talkgroup). Again, that’s 1:1.
3) Set up a zone with 32 channels. The first 16 channels are the conventional channels. The next 16 channels are talkgroups.
4) Set up a scan list. To be clear, it’s one scan list per talkgroup. So, police 1 goes into scan list one. Police 2 goes into scan list two. Etc. Etc. Set the scan lists to autoscan.
5) Go back to your conventional channels, and slave the scan list to the corresponding conventional channel. For example, the scan list for police 1 is assigned to the conventional channel for police 1. The scan list for police 2, is assigned to the conventional channel for police 2.

That’s it. Now, as you rotate the knob, your radio switch scan police 1 on the first position, police 2 on the second position, etc.

Hope that helps!
 
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#3
Yes, here's the operational summary:

Channel 1 is conventional and slaved to trunked scan list 1.
Channel 2 is conventional and slaved to trunked scan list 2.
Channel 3 is conventional and slaved to trunked scan list 3.
----and so forth----
Channel 16 is conventional and slaved to trunked scan list 16.

Channel 17 (and higher channels) are trunked personality entries, the ones referenced by the trunked scan lists.

Repeat on each zone as needed.

To be clear about this, for safety's sake, there is no CHAN or SUB menu entry in the radio which would ever allow you to directly access above channel 16 in any group. This makes it impossible for the radio to affiliate on any trunked system programmed in the radio.

You do need to keep very careful track of how the slaved scan lists are configured and assigned.
Scan characteristics need to be paid attention to as well. (Priority settings, etc.)
 

MoDogUser

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#4
Scanning

No I didn't miss a step. It works exactly as you say but when I'm set on say police 1 it will not hear police 2 talk group as a normal radio with a scan list and scanning turned on. When your only hearing one talk group at a time thats monitoring not scanning.

My question is how do you scan more than one talk group at a time. I know the limitations. Maybe just scan 4 talk groups.

I know it can be done with an affiliated radio because I carry one and use that feature daily.
 

davo51

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#5
If I understand right, to do what I think you want to do to scan several talk groups is to set up a conventional channel named scan and with this conventional channel make a scan group with this conventional channel and in the scan group make this conventional channel first, then add to this scan list the trunked channels you want to scan, same way you tie the conventional channel to a trunked channel, just add more trunked channels in the scan group, works for the APX line, anyway.
 

lacoscannerguy

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#6
If I understand right, to do what I think you want to do to scan several talk groups is to set up a conventional channel named scan and with this conventional channel make a scan group with this conventional channel and in the scan group make this conventional channel first, then add to this scan list the trunked channels you want to scan, same way you tie the conventional channel to a trunked channel, just add more trunked channels in the scan group, works for the APX line, anyway.
That's correct. Instead of the conventional channel being "Police 1", call it something like "Scan". And instead of having a single talkgroup in the scan list, add whatever it is you need to. When the knob position is on the "Scan" channel, it will scan all of the talkgroups you have programmed into the scan list.
 
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#7
For test purposes, simplify the codeplug as much as possible.

Set it up so you have a single mode slaved scan list containing only two talkgroups that are both in heavy use. See if you hear activity on both of them. Then add a few talkgroups. See if they work normally,
and then clone that talkgroup information into a second scan list, referenced from another conventional scanner, and see if that works. If it does, then change the second scan list's talkgroup assignments.

Working a stage at a time, start with a simple codeplug that works correctly and add talkgroups, scan lists, and channels to it, a few at a time, until you have completed the codeplug or until something stops working right. Then revert to the previous version and start looking for what changed that matters.

This would require you to save multiple versions of the same codeplug as you develop it from basic to fully featured. Finding where things go south is easy when you do that.
 
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#10
Yes, here's the operational summary:

Channel 1 is conventional and slaved to trunked scan list 1.
Channel 2 is conventional and slaved to trunked scan list 2.
Channel 3 is conventional and slaved to trunked scan list 3.
----and so forth----
Channel 16 is conventional and slaved to trunked scan list 16.

Channel 17 (and higher channels) are trunked personality entries, the ones referenced by the trunked scan lists.

Repeat on each zone as needed.

To be clear about this, for safety's sake, there is no CHAN or SUB menu entry in the radio which would ever allow you to directly access above channel 16 in any group. This makes it impossible for the radio to affiliate on any trunked system programmed in the radio.

You do need to keep very careful track of how the slaved scan lists are configured and assigned.
Scan characteristics need to be paid attention to as well. (Priority settings, etc.)
This works quite well and I have the 16 pos knob assigned to select zones and have no menu item for channel selection which if chnged like mentioned above would try to affiliate and most likely bricking your radio. Rather than trying to get my scanners to utter anything due to the lack LSM decoding, using pro gear that can be spendy, not really the hardware but is the programming cable and software. The non-affiliate method does not have all the bells and whistles like currently available, but it's worth it to actually hear a simulcast system. Also the 5000 will get picky if some control or button is set for TX Inhibit. When that's enabled, the radio will miss traffic. I am maybe a bit paranoid but the trace to the PTT button inside the radio case was cut so pushing the PTT button will do nothing. Until I can do another fix, no RSM's are allowed also as a precaution.

All of these measures are needed so accidental affiliation or causing the users or the system harm. Just take your time to double and triple check your settings before writing that codeplug to the radio. None if this crap would be necessary if scanner companies design their product for proper simulcast system reception.

Good luck, if you follow the directions carefully and everything is correct the results are worth it!.
 

N1DDC

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#12
It also depends on the system. I have found this during my own trials with an XTS5000. Some systems, especially P25, the subscriber radio HAS to affiliate to get any Audio. This is enabled by the particular System Administrator that runs the system. And some do enable that option. No matter how perfect you do this hidden talkgroup/passive scan method, if you use an XTS5000/XTS2500 on a Trunked system like a P25 that has Force Affiliate enabled you won't get any audio unless it affiliates and registers the approved Radio ID. I've ran into this problem myself on a few occasions.
 
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#13
No matter how perfect you do this hidden talkgroup/passive scan method, if you use an XTS5000/XTS2500 on a Trunked system like a P25 that has Force Affiliate enabled you won't get any audio unless it affiliates and registers the approved Radio ID. I've ran into this problem myself on a few occasions.

Where in the NM client/PRNM suite does one enable the feature you describe? FYI I care and feed for a 7.14 simulcast system, have M-Core, System Admin workshop, Console Manager workshop, and nowhere in any of the training CDs or manuals is any description of any such feature existing in Motorola Astro 25 infrastructure known as "force affiliate".

Please enlighten us.
 

N1DDC

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#15
So there is not an option on a P25 system that you can enable that makes subscriber units to affiliate to the system before allowing audio to be heard?? No need to get snarky or jump down my throat, I'm just going by what a System Admin I know has told me in the past in regards to affiliation. When I was told this it made sense to me especially when you try to go on a system and get the System Registration Failed error on the radio, hence unauthorized. Isn't that the same thing as making a radio affiliate properly before allowing audio? Maybe I'm confusing it with the command that a Sys Admin can send out to force every radio to identify itself to find unauthorized radios?

And if they truly isn't the case and there isn't some option an Admin can enable that makes all radios on the system affiliate then how come even tho all the settings are perfect the radio either doesn't receive audio or misses half of it.
 
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#16
So there is not an option on a P25 system that you can enable that makes subscriber units to affiliate to the system before allowing audio to be heard?? No need to get snarky or jump down my throat, I'm just going by what a System Admin I know has told me in the past in regards to affiliation. When I was told this it made sense to me especially when you try to go on a system and get the System Registration Failed error on the radio, hence unauthorized. Isn't that the same thing as making a radio affiliate properly before allowing audio? Maybe I'm confusing it with the command that a Sys Admin can send out to force every radio to identify itself to find unauthorized radios?

And if they truly isn't the case and there isn't some option an Admin can enable that makes all radios on the system affiliate then how come even tho all the settings are perfect the radio either doesn't receive audio or misses half of it.
I think you confused yourself with Opensky. Opensky radios all have an IP and download a provisioning file off the system after they affiliate. The only programming they need is the control channels and a valid ip. Everything else is downloaded. I currently monitor a 7.14 system with a RELM and it's absolutely fine. It pulls all the channel tables automatically. The only issue I run into is roaming. As the radio doesn't affiliate so it half works. Now with roaming on an XTS5000 if the talkgroup isn't authorized it just bonks and attempts to reaffiliate to its allowed AO.
 

crazyboy

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#17
The only case where you would have to affiliate to hear audio is to bring the talkgroup up on a simulcast site that does not have another radio on it, there is nothing requiring radios to affiliate to hear audio.
 
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#18
I currently monitor a 7.14 system with a RELM and it's absolutely fine. It pulls all the channel tables automatically.
I believe most P25 radios do the same if set for the proper mode.It's part of the P25 standard/spec.
 
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