Legality of Monitoring I-Calls

[n2mdk]

Here is an interesting question, since listening to phone calls is not legal I imagine that listening to people who use the I-Call system to patch into the phone system wouldn't quite be legal. So far the only time I hear them use the I-Call on both the Ames, and ISU systems it is for that purpose. Thought I would throw this out to the forum.

[rdale]

It is legal.

[n2mdk]

I guess it's like listening to an autopatch on a HAM repeater, that would be legal, guess I can answer my own question.

[ScanDaBands]

You really don't hear much anyway , guess it surely depends on the system....on the Horry County system you hear mostly County inspections related stuff...some Sheriff , usually tech talk - ie: computers,equipment,training. Lotta admin ....

[ElroyJetson]

Actually, the only thing that is SPECIFICALLY illegal other than monitoring ENCRYPTED signals (assuming you even CAN get the encryption key) is monitoring cellular calls in the "ancient" 800 MHz cellular band. That was relevant back in the analog, 800 MHz only cellular days,
but these days, most cellular traffic is in other bands and it's rare to hear an analog call
anymore on any band. It's almost all digital now.

I don't THINK that there's ANY actual law keeping you from listening in to, say, a GSM or
PCS signal that's not in the legacy 800 cellular band section.


But even if there is, an i-call isn't a cellular call so you're good to go.

Elroy

[n2mdk]

Actually in the US it is illegal to monitor any telephone call on any frequency or band including cordless phones. That's why I posed the question about phone calls over the I-Call

[obijohn]

Originally Posted by n2mdk

Actually in the US it is illegal to monitor any telephone call on any frequency or band including cordless phones. That's why I posed the question about phone calls over the I-Call

I may be a little out of touch on this, so I am curious- can you quote the section of the CFR (Code of federal regulations) that deals with this?

Don't get me wrong...I'm not trying to be a d..k. I'm really just curious. I missed out on this one, and I spent a part of my life working in the radio common carrier business, and thought I was well versed on the law.

[n2mdk]

The Electronic Communications Privacy Act http://grove-ent.com/LL-ECPA.html

[DaveNF2G]

It's not in the Code of Federal Regulations, it's in the United States Code. Title 18 contains most of the criminal statutes. 18 U.S.C. sects 2510-2520 is where the law against monitoring various things can be found.

An argument can be made that monitoring non-ham autopatches violates ECPA, but I've never seen much written on it and I don't believe there is any case law.

That being said, I-calls are used for more than just phone patching, so it would not be the interception of an I-call in and of itself that would cause legal problems.

[n2mdk]

Originally Posted by DaveNF2G

It's not in the Code of Federal Regulations, it's in the United States Code. Title 18 contains most of the criminal statutes. 18 U.S.C. sects 2510-2520 is where the law against monitoring various things can be found.

An argument can be made that monitoring non-ham autopatches violates ECPA, but I've never seen much written on it and I don't believe there is any case law.

That being said, I-calls are used for more than just phone patching, so it would not be the interception of an I-call in and of itself that would cause legal problems.

I know my Subject line is misleading, the question only pertains to it's use as a phone patch.
I think that until there is case law on it and similar situations the legality remains hazy.
I don't know how the expectation of privacy might fit into the equation with a HAM autopatch you really have none on an I-Call it could different.
The way the ECPA is written, I'm not sure of how much leeway one may actually have if any at all.

[topnik]

Originally Posted by n2mdk

I guess it's like listening to an autopatch on a HAM repeater, that would be legal, guess I can answer my own question.

There is every sort of Icall on a system I montor regularly...(Sarpy County, NE)...they have analog, P25, and encrypted. They do phone patches (oh, did I mention the 400MHz system at Offutt AFB?)

Big thing...as with anything else...technical specifics are fine...specific specifics...well, that's where you get into a grey area...

Nothing wrong with the freqs and info you glean from "traffic analysis"...specific information may get you in trouble...

That's why when I submit info (or post info) I generalize it...

Great scanning!

Spanky###

[ElroyJetson]

Sarpy County?

So how are things around my old home in Bellevue, NB? I haven't been there since '75. I was 10 when we left. My father was stationed at Offutt, flying RC-135s.

I remember it was a pretty nice place. At least it was good for a kid 6 to 10 years old.

I saw my first Motorola portable radio there. My father sometimes was the officer in
charge who had to carry the "brick", which I believe was a brand-spanking new HT220.
Cutting edge stuff!

Elroy

[topnik]

Originally Posted by ElroyJetson

Sarpy County?

So how are things around my old home in Bellevue, NB? I haven't been there since '75. I was 10 when we left. My father was stationed at Offutt, flying RC-135s.

I remember it was a pretty nice place. At least it was good for a kid 6 to 10 years old.

I saw my first Motorola portable radio there. My father sometimes was the officer in
charge who had to carry the "brick", which I believe was a brand-spanking new HT220.
Cutting edge stuff!

Elroy

I bet it has changed a bit...I flew RC's too...I'll PM you here shortly...and the scanning is great out this way...

Spanky###

[DaveIN]

Before the trunking scanners came along I used to monitor the local system the conventional way. I would hear private calls all the time. Then when the first Trunktracker BC235XLT came out I no longer heard them unless I monitored the frequency used for the patch conventionally. Now the latest Uniden Trunktracker III and IV scanners include I-Call (as will the new GRE PSR-500 and 600, from what I've read), but I no longer hear patches at all due to digital cell phones. The only thing I hear now is direct chat between units and a lot of "can you call me on the cell at this number".

So while technology has caught up for the scannist, the "phone patch" is no longer easily accessible to the every day monitor, only for the agencies that have access, unless you have an older trunked system that still uses the phone patch, such as an Air Force base.

[topnik]

Originally Posted by DaveIN

Before the trunking scanners came along I used to monitor the local system the conventional way. I would hear private calls all the time. Then when the first Trunktracker BC235XLT came out I no longer heard them unless I monitored the frequency used for the patch conventionally. Now the latest Uniden Trunktracker III and IV scanners include I-Call (as will the new GRE PSR-500 and 600, from what I've read), but I no longer hear patches at all due to digital cell phones. The only thing I hear now is direct chat between units and a lot of "can you call me on the cell at this number".

So while technology has caught up for the scannist, the "phone patch" is no longer easily accessible to the every day monitor, only for the agencies that have access, unless you have an older trunked system that still uses the phone patch, such as an Air Force base.

...on what system you monitor. Although, in the long run...legality...(considering the original topic of this post) is truly in the eyes of the beholder.

Honestly, let's really look at this, you CAN monitor anything you want to. If you have the capability to break out encrypted stuff (I know...) or you have the ablitly to decode MDT (I know) or you do your thing and do your thing....you CAN montior whatever is there to be monitored.

Blast the legality, unless your doing illegal things.

You, as a citizen, can basically do whatever you want unless you call attention to yourself.

Nuff said.

Spanky###

[lemish]

Originally Posted by obijohn

I may be a little out of touch on this, so I am curious- can you quote the section of the CFR (Code of federal regulations) that deals with this?

Don't get me wrong...I'm not trying to be a d..k. I'm really just curious. I missed out on this one, and I spent a part of my life working in the radio common carrier business, and thought I was well versed on the law.

It actually goes back as far as cordless phone when they operated in the 46MHz band. I think it was the Telecommunications Act of 1976 or something simialr that started it.

[JungleJim]

To stay on the topic an I call is a direct radio to radio call over a trunked radio system. It is not a telephone call and is never connected to a telephone trunk. That is what phone calls (trunked) and phone patches (conventional) are for. Don't try to over-complicate it.

I don't know what the FCC's stance would be and personally I don't think they give a crap unless there is some money in it. I advise all the users I deal with that it is a radio call and there is never any guarantee of privacy.

[n2mdk]

Originally Posted by JungleJim

To stay on the topic an I call is a direct radio to radio call over a trunked radio system. It is not a telephone call and is never connected to a telephone trunk. That is what phone calls (trunked) and phone patches (conventional) are for. Don't try to over-complicate it.

I don't know what the FCC's stance would be and personally I don't think they give a crap unless there is some money in it. I advise all the users I deal with that it is a radio call and there is never any guarantee of privacy.

I'm not sure what you are saying. In Ames, Ia. the I-Call system on both the Ames City and ISU systems are used to patch into the telephone lines. I have as yet to hear it used for a radio to radio direct call.

[N_Jay]

Originally Posted by n2mdk

I'm not sure what you are saying. In Ames, Ia. the I-Call system on both the Ames City and ISU systems are used to patch into the telephone lines. I have as yet to hear it used for a radio to radio direct call.

Unless they have don't something kind of unique, I-Calls and Phone calls are different on a Motorola trunked system.

They may show up similar on a scanner, but that is just a side effect of the reverse engineering done to make the scanner work.

Either way, a Phone patch on a LMR system is not assured any more privacy that any other LMR call.

[n2mdk]

OK because they do show up having the same 7xxxxx ID and only works with I-Call enabled.