BCD396XT Battery life

[hertzian]

Originally Posted by bear780ks

I thought i saw it all with chargers and different batteries in the charger) but in this picture it takes a new meaning to charging.. WoW! Ra

Actually the Maha is kicking out the high-impedance Lenmar cell is position #1 that is old and/or abused.

Dumber chargers, or those that just do a simple trickle will dump current into that battery that has basically turned into a resistor and get some extra life out of it - when all is said and done it might be back up to 50% capacity, and not sustain much of a load.

The Maha saves you time by telling you to just recycle that nasty cell.

[bear780ks]

@ hertzian:

Ok so which MaHa could i try that would do as good as job C9000 but not be so complicated to use). I wouldn't mine having that charger hertzian but i'v had no prior use of using it and i don't want to get something going in with no knowledge and end up messing more up than i should.


Universal Radio offers these maha chargers.. Would they be Ok! point out the one you think would be ok to try.. thanks Ra


MH-C204F AA/AAA Charger & Conditioner
MH-C204W World AA/AAA Charger & Conditioner
MH-C800S World AA/AAA Charger & Conditioner
MH-C801D World AA/AAA Charger & Conditioner
MH-C808M AA/AAA/C/D Charger
MH-C9000 World AA/AAA Charger & Conditioner
MH-DPB180M Powerbank

[bear780ks]

I thought i'd kick in a shack photo but i'm doing it a little differently: Since the only allowance of a picture is 500k look at that little dude setten up there ain't he Cool Ra

[novascotian]

This is I guess getting away from the Uniden focus, but I just ordered the Maha charger C-9000 and new cells to go with it. That is what I will use in my scanners and ham handheld. But I have lots of AA cells lying around here, to use in other things.... an assortment of Duracells, Radio Shack, Energizer, Ray-o-vac... and a variety of capacities. I am sure that the new charger will tell me some of them are no good anymore, but for the rest, and surely some will be okay, what is the opinion on mixing cells of diffferent capacities in one device, such as a 2300 with a 2100.... or different brands with same capacity? I realize with the new charger there will not be a problem charging at the same time but I am talking about using in devices.

[hertzian]

Originally Posted by bear780ks

Ok so which MaHa could i try that would do as good as job C9000 but not be so complicated to use).

The good news is that the MH-C9000 has a set-and-forget mode if you don't want all the features. It's no more complicated than putting 4 AA cells into it and walking away. If you don't push any buttons, ten seconds later, the Maha will go into a default charge, which uses a smart algorithm with multiple safety features. That's why I'd still recommend the 9000, although I've used most of the others in that list to charge other sized cells.

If you don't want the custom features, you don't have to use them, yet still know that the cells are being properly charged, and just as important, *properly trickled*. Thus you can leave the cells in forever if you like.

The default rate of 1000ma is perfect for 2000ma batteries. Higher capacity cells are actually no problem either because of: 1) The Maha is VERY good at detecting delta-v EOC signals. 2) IF that delta-v is missed because you didn't specify a C/2 rate, the Maha will quickly catch it when the cell reaches 1.48 volts. 3) Thermal detection is also being used.

In addition, the 9000 doesn't actually take the cells right up to 100% when "done" appears in the display. This is also a safety factor. Although the cells could be considered perfectly charged at this point, battery geeks like me found out that the 9000 will do a much slower topoff for 2 hours at 60ma per hour (not mentioned in the manual). After that, it will TRULY trickle at 10ma forever, which won't slow-roast the battery. Battery geeks like myself who test capacities will want to charge for 2 additional hours after "done" appears.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised that scanner users say that the charger is complicated. The features aren't that complicated, but one has to read the manual. Kind of like our scanners.

Tip: To actually test the capacity of a previously fully charged battery, one uses the manufacturer-standard C/20 rate for DISCHARGE. Ie, for a 2000mah cell, after you insert it, you would manually select "discharge", (up/down button) and then "enter", and then specify a 100mah discharge rate the same way. When the 9000 says "done", it will also show you how many milliamps it discharged, revealing the true capacity of the battery. Not only is this handy for verifying the capacity of your own batteries, but can also be handy for checking if another charger is truly charging things up properly!

Most batteries should also be considered for recycling when they only reach about 80% of rated capacity after being charged. Here again, if you did a C/20 discharge test on 2000 mah Eneloops, and they only show about 1600ma after the test, they've reached the 80% mark, and I'd consider replacing them. Obviously a great way to figure out if some random cells you have laying around are even worth the trouble - OR if the resuscitation features did any good on some misbehaving cell.

Yet still, it is just as simple to put in some cells and walk away from it. AC/DC operations are also a plus.
The 9000 gets my vote for being very simple, yet quite capable if you want to go deeper later on.

[eorange]

I had an 801D for many years, liking the fact that it could charge 8 cells at once. It was OK, not many options on it, but good enough.

Eventually, the LCD elements started flaking out. Either continually staying on / not changing, or else refusing to display. I ended up pitching the stupid thing about 2 months ago, and got the C9000.

After a few charges, using the same batteries (Eneloops), it seems the C9000 does a better job...my batteries are definitely lasting longer.

[hertzian]

While the other Maha chargers are good, the 9000 is pretty much the industry standard for us fanatics. Yet I still need the 801D to charge my 10-amp D cells. Note that the default rate for the 801D is 2000ma, unless you push the soft-charge button quickly upon insertion. Eneloops have no problem with C/1, but many lesser-quality cells can't. The 801S has a smaller default charge rate of 1000ma - possibly in response to those that forget to use the soft-charge button on the 801D. I find no need to do C/1, so I either push the soft-charge button on the 801D, or use the 801S in default.

The Maha visually identifies those very cells that would be dangerous to charge inside a Uniden (or any other scanner) as the Uniden will slowly roast a AA resistor and not a battery.

Ideally, running the discharge test after a few cycles is a good way to identify those cells that should be treated as a pack. Ie, I just bought 4 new Eneloops. After a few cycles, the discharge test was run, and the three cells that are closest to each other in capacity are the ones I put into the 396.

Ironically enough, the Maha also identifies those cells that pass with flying colors that would be totally safe to use with the Uniden's internal charger if you can't take the Maha with you. Periodic testing would be wise. All this tech-talk makes it appear complicated, but it really isn't once you physically do it.

[1075]

Has anyone had any experience with the new Eneloop 2400mah XX batteries? I am considering trying a set in my 396T.

[bear780ks]

I got MaHa charger & batteries at a batteries Plus+ store the store had a good Selection of batteries to choose from but they didn't have the enloop's i was a little surprised on that.

But i'm glad i was able to find what i was looking for & Locally and there prices are very near to what you'd pay online well of course you have to pay the Governor his share but it figures out to what you pay for shipping and handling but less the Waiting.. Ra

[kbehning]

Originally Posted by 1075

Has anyone had any experience with the new Eneloop 2400mah XX batteries? I am considering trying a set in my 396T.

I have 16 of the XX eneloops. They're all I use in my 396XT and Homepatrol. I'm getting anywhere from 2300 to 2450 listed on the C9000 on a standard charging cycle at 800ma. I also get that when I do the battery refresh and analyze function, so I get a pretty good idea of how the batteries are holding up over time. They're built to last. I would recommend the XX over the standard eneloops for scanners because the added runtime of the scanner is key. There is not alot of excitement in listening to a scanner that has run its batteries dead. The XX eneloops extend that time beyond the standard eneloops. Setting the key beep to off in the 396XT is a great way to get the full use out of the batteries rather than stopping when low battery warning starts. The scanner shuts off at 3.4 volts, which is 1.13 volts per cell. When doing discharge or capacity checks, the maha c9000 goes down to 1.0 volt, the La Crosse goes down to 0.9 volt. So we're not able to use the full usable range of any NiMH cell in the 396XT. Another reason to go with the low self discharge eneloop with the higher capacity (XX).

I also understand that the La Crosse charger actually has a lower discharge limit cutoff voltage and a higher full charge voltage resulting in running the batteries through a wider swath of their usable capacity when testing them. The capacity values of the XX eneloops on the La Crosse charger is up around 2500-2600+ according to the La Crosse. Between the excellent long life of the eneloops (both XX and regular)and the low self discharge characteristics of both the XX and regular, and the added capacity of the XX, I would not go with the regular eneloops or a competitor. If the added cost of the XX over the regular eneloops is a problem, then its defintely better to go with the eneloops rather than some ray o vac's or energizers at a local store. I get a kick out of the rayovacs or something similar I just looked at on the shelf at a dept store: They don't even list the maH capacity on the cells anymore. Once you get so far into taking care of and understanding your high performance cells, the mainstream cells really do look like the joke is on the uninformed common consumer.

[1075]

Thanks for the insight kbehning, very helpful. One followup if you don't mind, is the lower number of charge cycles (500) for the XX something to be concerned about? I have been using the regular Eneloops in my 396 for several years and have just ordered another 8 pack along with the C9000. Trying to decide if I should cancel the order for the regular batteries in favor of the XX. I will probably use them in an LED flashlight in addition to the scanner, both of which are of no use when the batteries die.

[bear780ks]

Well one thing i took strongly from the manager at the battery store (batteries plus+) and also from the Head battery technician at MaHa is that it's not a good idea to mix battery types with the chargers.

It's best to charge with same name brand meaning you buy a MaHa charger charge there batteries with it, You buy Sanyo's eneloop batteries use there chargers and so on and it clearly states that in the box's instructions as well.

And that's even on that fancy conditioning charger MaHa sell's there C9000 the head tech at MaHa said you might see ones on Youtube showing that there charging different batteries with it but there taking a big risk! and if any thing should go wrong with the Unit caused by those battery we won't stand behind it). We only guarantee using our brand of charger's with our brand of batteries and told him that's all i need to Know...



The Head Technician i talked to at MaHa was Eric i called there 1-800 and talked to him for about 30 min. Ra

[kbehning]

Originally Posted by 1075

Thanks for the insight kbehning, very helpful. One followup if you don't mind, is the lower number of charge cycles (500) for the XX something to be concerned about? I have been using the regular Eneloops in my 396 for several years and have just ordered another 8 pack along with the C9000. Trying to decide if I should cancel the order for the regular batteries in favor of the XX. I will probably use them in an LED flashlight in addition to the scanner, both of which are of no use when the batteries die.

Well, I have to take Sanyo's estimates of 500 and 1500 cycles over the life of the battery as a representation of what can be expected. For me, the added capacity of the XX is worth the extra money. Lets say you can get the standard eneloop AA for $10.55 current price (for 4) on amazon, and $17.31 for 4 XX cells.
Assuming you get the 1500 and 500 cycles respectively, that's
(($10.55/4)/1500) = 0.176 cents per cycle per cell for the standard and
(($17.31/4)/500) = 0.866 cents per cycle per cell for the XX.

Since we're talking less than a penny per use cycle over the life of each cell, I think its not worth considering the cost and instead going for the longer runtime with the XX capacity.

[bear780ks]

Here is a pic of my new MaHa Charger and the powerex's in my 396xt: Ra

[kbehning]

A nice setup there bear. You're ahead of most of the pack now. You should be happy with that for a long time. Maha knows what they're doing.

I'd try to do the soft charge option as much as possible to extend the life of the batteries. Slow charge makes them last more cycles.

[bear780ks]

Yup from what the Guys tell me at batteries+ it's a good one to go with next to the C9000 i think after i get some time under my belt KB with this charger and batteries i might move up to the C9000 as an Extra charger for it's capabilities..

I got this 8 Cell charger for $89.99 and the Batteries were $15.00 for a pack) So i could rotate the cells i used the slow setting the first time KB it takes a bit longer but i think it will yield better results i'm just glad i was able to find it close to were i live that's the really nice thing about.

And KB they have lots of other Goodies in the Store that got my attention any bulb for the house that's under the sun and flashlights it's a big boys fun store i'll tell ya Ra

[hertzian]

bear78ks - congrats on the charger. Your Uniden will love them.

Understand that the 2700's you purchased are standard nimh, and have a high self-discharge rate. Therefore try to use them within a week at most. Otherwise, at the end of the month, you'll find out that they have self-discharged to about a 2300 mah cell, which is currently the default capacity of the OEM Uniden provided batteries. The 9000 would have proven this.

Since the Maha rep convinced you not to run anything but Maha, that means you won't be able to run Sanyo Eneloop low-self-discharge types in them. Your only recourse if you want to use Low Self Discharge is to use the Maha/Powerex "Imedion" batteries, which are at 2400mah right now. I find them handier to obtain than the XX Eneloops, and are performing quite well.

Do what you want, but real-world meaning of not running mixed cells means to stick to one brand *as a pack*, and not use a combination, ie in your 396 don't run an eneloop, a maha, and an energizer.

The engineers are good, but of course with a battery line of their own, they aren't going to have you go off and use another brand of battery. If you feel like doing so, the chargers have built-in safeguards to detect poor quality. I'm confident enough to run other brands in them, and get all that I paid for.

Realize that if what you have is the 801D, the fast charge is 2000ma, and the slow charge is 1000ma, which is kind of a misnomer. There is no true slow-charge in that unit, and to make sure your charger detects the delta-v with those 2700's, I'd suggest using the default fast charge, as we've discussed the C/2 minimum rate before.

At any rate, you'll be happy no matter what, and so will the Unidens that you put the batteries in.

[bear780ks]

You can buy the Imedion's through MaHa's customer service i did notice when i put the 2700's in that they Lasted about 8 hours witch isn't probably the greatest!

But i'm just getting back to what i use to do as an everyday thing but it was mostly with my 780 i never shut it off but it didn't run on batteries and with other handhelds i had in the past i just put the batteries in and charged them but things have come a long way and so has batteries.

But i have budget i have to work with so i had to go with what i thought would work the best) And i would of minded trying the eneloops but i'm the type i like to see before i buy i know that is sometimes hard to do but that is my druther and i guess i'll see how these do if i need the Imedion's i can put my druther to the side & order them and try them out.

Or if my Poke get's a little larger i'll get a set of eneloops and try them i wouldn't mind getting that big set you get) it includes AA AAA C sleeves and D Sleeves charger and a Case..

But one thing i will do is i will do the SLOW charge option as KB pointed out and if i need to i will do the recondition as.. Thanks again for the Info Ra

Here one set i wouldn't mind Having

SEC-NTG10SETUS or SEC-N12SETGEN

[kbehning]

I go with 0.33 C to 0.40 C charge rate as much as possible when charging my cells. I believe this is a balance between Maha's general recommendations and trying to go easy on the cells.

First, I've read accounts of people testing the C9000 with cells and having a good record of what a set of cells' capacity was, then they did a 2000mA charge cycle and the capacity of the battery was permanently reduced by 5% or so due to the heat of the process. So if the batteries get hot to the touch just consider it as burning battery capacity permanently.

Now, pulling from the Maha FAQ for the C9000, we have:

Q1) What are the recommended charging and discharging current for my battery?

A1) The recommended charging current is 0.5C, or 0.5 times the battery capacity. The recommended discharging current is 0.25C, or 0.25C times the battery capacity. Here are some settings for common batteries:
2700mAh Charge: 1300mA Discharge: 700mA
2300mAh Charge: 1100mA Discharge: 600mA
2200mAh Charge: 1100mA Discharge: 600mA
2000mAh Charge: 1000mA Discharge: 500mA

KB: They recommend 0.5C as the "standard, all purpose" charging rate.

Q2) When using higher charging current, the charging capacity seems to reduce. Is this normal?

A2) When charging at higher current, the charge completeness reduces thereby lowering the charging capacity. This is to prevent battery overheating. This typically occurs at a rate greater than 1500mA. Generally speaking, 1000mA achieves nearly full charge completeness for AA batteries.Even after the charge ends (DONE appears on screen), the charger will apply a topoff charge and continuous maintenance charge. Despite that the capacity on the screen no longer increases, the batteries are being topped off.If you would like to achieve better charge completeness at higher currents, a small fan can be added to cool the batteries externally.

KB: To me, this either indiates that the overtemp is what stops the charge process at high rate, which is something I definitely want to stay away from for battery longevity.

Q3) Why is it not recommended to charge battery below 0.33C?

A3) When charging below 0.33C (except in BREAK-IN) mode, the batteries may not produce a sufficient end-of-charge signal for the charger to terminate correctly. Although the temperature sensors will safeguard battery overheating, lower charging rate might not cause enough heating in the batteries to trip the sensors.If low charging rate is desired, you should use the BREAK-IN mode. Charging in that mode is terminated by only time (1.6 times battery capacity) and temperature.

KB: 0.33C is the MAHA minimum recommended rate of charge to get a good dv/dt signal. For my 2400 mAh XX eneloops, that is 800 mA, for bears 2700 mAh Powerex's, that is 900 mA.

Q4) Is it normal for the batteries to get warm during charging?

A4) Yes, batteries do get warm during the charge due to both internal heat and heat produced by the charger. Lower charging rate can yield lower battery temperature, but it is not recommended to go below 0.33C or 0.33 times the battery capacity. Adding an external fan can also cool the battery.

KB: Internal resistance of a cell and the quality of the cell chemistry are the primary items that will determine how much a cell heats up during a constant current charge, as the Maha's do. The eneloops are a very high quality cell, with the lowest internal resistance I have seen. Eneloops are known for being more accomodating to high rate charging because the lower resistance and quality chemistry (easier charge chemical reaction) results in lower temperatures.

Since its high temps that kill cells prematurely, I favor the cooler side of the charging continuum.

Bear's cells are 2700 mAh Powerex. Putting this all together, If the recommended, standard, all purpose charge rate is 1350 mA, but his charger only does 1000 mA (soft) or 2000 mA (fast), and the 1000 mA rate is higher than 0.33 C (it's 0.37 C for him), I'd say he should stick with the slower 1000 mA (Soft) rate and make his cells last longer by taking it easy on them.

[kbehning]

Double posted