BCD396T: Memory Capacity Glitch?

[bacon]

BACKGROUND:

The Indiana SAFE-T system is a statewide Motorola SmartZone Omnilink trunked system that has 80 active sites and over 1300 talkgroups at the moment. My BCD396T (firmware 1.10.01) has 48 systems (32 are SAFE-T) programmed into it. The systems are as follows:

37 Motorola Trunked (4-Type II, 1-Type Iii, 32-SmartZone Omnilink)
2 EDACS Trunked
9 Conventional

PROBLEM:

The “% Memory Used” on the scanner, UASD, and Butel ARC396Pro all report my memory at 84% capacity. When I try to upload more systems or channels using either software program the memory will only accept up to 85% capacity before I will get messages stating the scanner memory is full. I did delete all the preprogrammed systems.

The UASD software statistics give me the following information:

Write time (est.) = 9 minutes
Statistics:
Systems = 48
Groups = 295
Channels + Talkgroups + System Frequencies = 5998
Memory Used = 84%
Unused Memory Blocks = 1144

I talked to a Uniden technician and was told that they had never tested his in-house scanner using that much memory or with that many systems. He asked why I needed so many systems and suggested I use CC only mode (which I already was). I tried to explain that here in Indiana our statewide SAFE-T system is a Motorola SmartZone Omnilink system therefore each site has its own control channels and the BCD396T dynamic memory design requires each site’s CC to be programmed into separate systems to trunk track properly. I don’t think he understood or appreciated the fact that statewide talkgroups are affiliated with all sites and need to be duplicated in every site’s system (as well as local talkgroups duplicated in adjacent sites systems) because he began to inquire about my travel habits and why I needed to have or hear talkgroups in the scanner from areas of the state that weren’t near to me. Maybe I wasn’t clear on the phone, or he just didn’t understand (or both) that when if I travel I want as many sites programmed into my scanner as possible so when I come into range of a site all I need to do is use a quick key to start trunk tracking that site. Anyway he said he would look into the scanner memory incorrectly reading the capacity.

I’m wondering if the real “Memory Used” should be reporting 99% as indicated by the 5998 channels, talkgroups, and system frequencies in the UASD statistics. It seems like the “up to 6000” channels Uniden promised is base on adding together conventional frequency channels, trunked talkgroups, and trunked system frequencies (see above) because it seems that is what the scanner is actually adding up to reach the 6000 number before it stops accepting more. If that is so then I still don’t understand the 1144 unused memory blocks.

While Uniden is “looking into the issue” any explanations, comments, or input would be appreciated. Is this a firmware programming issue or do I have unused memory blocks that I can’t access? Help anyone, UPMan?

[UPMan]

Whoever you spoke to was in error. Of course, we limit tested the scanner.

The limit you are hitting that is generating the error is the limit of Channels (conventional frequencies + trunked talk groups) + System Frequencies. This limit is 6000. You could, however, still add search frequency lockouts and some other non channel-related stuff that also take up memory but which you haven't hit the limit on. Those other areas where you haven't hit the limit comprise the unused 16%.

[rdale]

"I tried to explain that here in Indiana our statewide SAFE-T system is a Motorola SmartZone Omnilink system therefore each site has its own control channels and the BCD396T dynamic memory design requires each site’s CC to be programmed into separate systems to trunk track properly."

How about programming CC's from different areas of the state in the same system? I.E. Ft Wayne and Indy in System 1, Lafayette and Evansville in System 2, etc...

[bacon]

Originally Posted by UPMan

Whoever you spoke to was in error. Of course, we limit tested the scanner.

The limit you are hitting that is generating the error is the limit of Channels (conventional frequencies + trunked talk groups) + System Frequencies. This limit is 6000. You could, however, still add search frequency lockouts and some other non channel-related stuff that also take up memory but which you haven't hit the limit on. Those other areas where you haven't hit the limit comprise the unused 16%.

Thanks for your quick response UPMan. That makes me feel better now that I understand the memory meter. It was just a bit confusing because you are made to think you actually have more space left to program systems when that’s not the case. It would have been nice to see a programmable system memory meter as well as a non channel related memory meter, but, alas, hind sight is 20/20. HEY, wait a minute the BCD396T firmware IS updateable isn’t it? :-)

[bacon]

Originally Posted by rdale

How about programming CC's from different areas of the state in the same system? I.E. Ft Wayne and Indy in System 1, Lafayette and Evansville in System 2, etc...

Thanks rdale for the suggestion but there is just not enough talkgroup space per system to do that. Believe me, I’ve thought about that but it doesn’t work for me because, for starters, there are 77 common statewide talkgroups that I want to monitor that need to be programmed into all systems. That’s over 30% of the each system’s 200 talkgroup limit right there. Add to that the local state police, the site’s county talk groups, plus adjacent county’s talkgroups (they seem to affiliate with each other) and I already come pretty close to 200 talkgroups limit per system easily. With the talkgroup and memory allocation limitations I have already had to sacrifice DOT, DOC, and adjacent state police district talkgroups everywhere but for my local site system.

[rdale]

"I’ve thought about that but it doesn’t work for me because, for starters, there are 77 common statewide talkgroups that I want to monitor that need to be programmed into all systems."

How about one system of just those, with all possible CC's in it? So you'll have your local system, then also scan this one with the statewides?

[hotdjdave]

Sounds like Uniden needs to release a firmware upgrade that allows more than 200 talkgroups per system. I am sure this was not conceivable when the scanner was designed; but here we are, we have come to the bridge and are now trying to cross it. This is one of the flaws (maybe the only one) with limited dynamic memory design.

Until Uniden makes this adjustment (hint, hint), my suggestion to temporary fix the problem would be to just not program in all the TGs. Leave out non-essential TGs (I am not familiar with the Indiana; but, e.g., janitorial services, administrative, any TG that is beyond # 4 (Road Maint 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 - or whatever ones you want to keep), and so on - you get the picture). I can bet that there are some TGs in those systems that have never been used since the day they were put in the system.

We can't have it all, man.

[rjschave]

Originally Posted by bacon

Thanks rdale for the suggestion but there is just not enough talkgroup space per system to do that. Believe me, I’ve thought about that but it doesn’t work for me because, for starters, there are 77 common statewide talkgroups that I want to monitor that need to be programmed into all systems. That’s over 30% of the each system’s 200 talkgroup limit right there. Add to that the local state police, the site’s county talk groups, plus adjacent county’s talkgroups (they seem to affiliate with each other) and I already come pretty close to 200 talkgroups limit per system easily. With the talkgroup and memory allocation limitations I have already had to sacrifice DOT, DOC, and adjacent state police district talkgroups everywhere but for my local site system.

That's a wake up call for me. So even though I can store up to 200 talk groups in a group and have up to 20 groups in a system, the system is limited to 200 talk groups total. I thought I was making a big gain over the 150 talk group limit per bank in the Pro 96. it appears now it is only 50 more talk groups.

Wayne County, Michigan has over 200 talk groups on the MPSCS system. Even if I factor out janitors and similar, I still won't have room for all of the local district and statewide talk groups.

I hope Uniden and Radio Shack realize that 200 and 150 talk group limitations are not cutting it anymore.

I wonder if the 996 will have the same problem.

[karldotcom]

Time for another scanner! Twin 396Ts marked East and West.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by hotdjdave

Sounds like Uniden needs to release a firmware upgrade that allows more than 200 talkgroups per system.

The way it is designed (or so I gather), the scanner can only evaluate so many TGs at a time before the next TG info is sent on the control channel. The 'fix' for more than 200 TGs is to program the 'next 200' in another (otherwise duplicate) system. You can break up the systems by service (PD/FD/EMS/EMA/PW/Etc) or by location (E/W/N/S) or anyway you want.

Joe M.

[rdale]

"Sounds like Uniden needs to release a firmware upgrade that allows more than 200 talkgroups per system."

Then you'd miss talkgroups... The scanner can only process the control channel info so fast (no Pentium chip installed.) So if you have a list of 300 talkgroups to compare the CC to, it wouldn't be finished with the list before the next TG came over the CC so you would miss transmissions.

Or just reprogram the scanner with the necessary systems before traveling.

[hotdjdave]

Originally Posted by karldotcom

Time for another scanner! Twin 396Ts marked East and West.

LOL - Best idea yet, expensive although.

As for adding talkgroups...I was only implying making it 250 from 200. Fifty more should not slow it down that much.

As for scanner speed, when are scanner manufacturers going to break the 100 cps barrier. Scanners 15 or 20 years ago scanned that fast (e.g. my Uniden MR-8100 does 100 cps, and its over 10 years old).

Some day!

[MysticalOS]

Originally Posted by hotdjdave

LOL - Best idea yet, expensive although.

As for adding talkgroups...I was only implying making it 250 from 200. Fifty more should not slow it down that much.

As for scanner speed, when are scanner manufacturers going to break the 100 cps barrier. Scanners 15 or 20 years ago scanned that fast (e.g. my Uniden MR-8100 does 100 cps, and its over 10 years old).

Some day!

Note that the 996 limit IS 250. Of course SEVERAL states got their own statewide system products under way and this still won't cut it either. Quite honestly a huge focus needs to be put on next gen scanners that can process talkgroups faster and handle higher limits..

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by MysticalOS

Note that the 996 limit IS 250. Of course SEVERAL states got their own statewide system products under way and this still won't cut it either. Quite honestly a huge focus needs to be put on next gen scanners that can process talkgroups faster and handle higher limits..

Most commercial radios (the ones the system was designed for) will scan ONLY 10-16 CHANNELS! 250 is 'incredible' by comparison.

Besides, there is nothing keeping you from simply programming another systems to get over 1000 channels if need be. Your complaint is similar to complaining about a scanner in which you can fit only 50 channels in a bank. "But my area uses over 150 channels!" So use four banks.

If you look at the history of scanners, the number of TGs HAS been increasing. But, don't expect them to put a $100 CPU in a $500 scanner.

Joe M.

[hiegtx]

Originally Posted by bacon

Thanks rdale for the suggestion but there is just not enough talkgroup space per system to do that. Believe me, I’ve thought about that but it doesn’t work for me because, for starters, there are 77 common statewide talkgroups that I want to monitor that need to be programmed into all systems. That’s over 30% of the each system’s 200 talkgroup limit right there. Add to that the local state police, the site’s county talk groups, plus adjacent county’s talkgroups (they seem to affiliate with each other) and I already come pretty close to 200 talkgroups limit per system easily. With the talkgroup and memory allocation limitations I have already had to sacrifice DOT, DOC, and adjacent state police district talkgroups everywhere but for my local site system.

The other problem is that trying to greatly increase processor capacity to handle a much larger number of talk groups would likely require more power consumption. So, that requires more battery capacity, four or five batteries for a handheld like the 396 instead of 3, and/or short run time between charges. That would not be such an issue in a base-mobile scanner, like the 996, but another byproduct of the increased power usage is heat. Have you opened the case on a newer pc, say 2+ gigahz, while it was operating, or just after shutdown from doing heavy calculations, & grabbed the heatsink? If you weren't wearing gloves, you probably would not do it a second time. Now, granted that would be an extreme for a scanner, but a faster processor could begin to generate enough warmth to get uncomfortable.

bacon,
Why not break out the statewide talk groups. Instead of programing them into every single system, put them in a dedicated state system. Stagger your control channels for several sites into one single system; the sites should be physically far enough apart so that the scanner would not possibly get more than one control channel at any time. That's because the 396, like other Uniden scanners, will stop & evaluate the first active control channel it finds in a system. Then move on to the next system , without seeing if any other control channels in the first group were also active. You might be able to cover the statewides with several such 'combined' systems, & free up some memory for the local talk groups in ''county' systems.
It would be nice if the "6000" max was updated to include only those system enabled, for those who are trying to monitor a statewide trunk system with individual city and county participation (I don't have anything anywhere close to that in my area). It will also be interesting to see how Uniden handles the multi-site systems in the 996. Whether it allows sharing of talkgroups, or putting multiple site frequencies in the same 'system'.

[bacon]

Originally Posted by hiegtx

bacon,
Why not break out the statewide talk groups. Instead of programing them into every single system, put them in a dedicated state system. Stagger your control channels for several sites into one single system; the sites should be physically far enough apart so that the scanner would not possibly get more than one control channel at any time. That's because the 396, like other Uniden scanners, will stop & evaluate the first active control channel it finds in a system. Then move on to the next system , without seeing if any other control channels in the first group were also active. You might be able to cover the statewides with several such 'combined' systems, & free up some memory for the local talk groups in ''county' systems. It would be nice if the "6000" max was updated to include only those system enabled, for those who are trying to monitor a statewide trunk system with individual city and county participation (I don't have anything anywhere close to that in my area). It will also be interesting to see how Uniden handles the multi-site systems in the 996. Whether it allows sharing of talkgroups, or putting multiple site frequencies in the same 'system'.

There is a lot of overlap in the Indiana SAFE-T system. I can actually monitor at least 9 different sites (not including my county's local site) from where I live, very well on a good night. I can pick up a few sites from as far away as 2 or 3 counties.

I wanted to be able to have all the SAFE-T system CCs and TGs programmed into my scanner so when I traveled to different parts of the state I wouldn’t have to reprogram. I put a lot of thought into my setup and every suggestion that has been given in this thread I have thought of and found it does not work for me.

Since Uniden locks onto and monitors only the first CC in a system, if I used your suggestion, I couldn’t ensure that I would always get to monitor the best and closest site's signal. Besides that, there will eventually be over 120 sites. Each will have its own primary and alternate control channel frequencies. And although some will be reused in different areas of the state there will still be at least 100 CCs that need to be considered.

Now that I know about and understand the talkgroup vs. scan time limitation I guess I can live with having to reprogram. At present, I'm covering approximately ¼ of the state and that fills my scanner. Although I have to repeat the statewide TGs, I came to the conclusion that assigning sites to a quick keys based on the state police district they're in works best for me. Still, it would be great if there was some way to get the BCD396T to monitor more than one CC per system similar to the trick you can use on the PRO-96 to get it to monitor more than one CC per bank (put any conventional frequency between trunked CCs). I could then program the whole state by having systems based on CCs in state police districts. For each state police district (13 districts) I would only have to program 2, at the most 4, systems. Each system would monitor all the sites CCs in that district; at least one system per district for statewide TGs and at least one system for the counties TGs in that district. The problem or I should say bottleneck with the BCD396T is that it is only able to monitor one active (the first one it locks onto) CC per system at a time.

[Codeman]

Originally Posted by bacon

...The problem or I should say bottleneck with the BCD396T is that it is only able to monitor one CC per system.

This may or may not help, but I've been monitoring a Motorola TYpe II analog system that has 6 primary control channels plus 2 alternates. In CC only mode, my 396 monitors them all with no problems. I've verified that it's doing so because the various freqs display when a TGID is open. Likewise, all 30 freqs are monitored if CC Only is turned off.

[bacon]

Originally Posted by Codeman

This may or may not help, but I've been monitoring a Motorola TYpe II analog system that has 6 primary control channels plus 2 alternates. In CC only mode, my 396 monitors them all with no problems. I've verified that it's doing so because the various freqs display when a TGID is open. Likewise, all 30 freqs are monitored if CC Only is turned off.

Yes but isn't only one of those primary control channels active at any one time? The Indianapolis MECA I system has four CCs (27 total freqs.) like you mentioned but only one is active at a time. I have no problem monitoring systems like that. I just program in all 4 CCs into a 396T system in either "CC only" mode or use all the frequencies and it will be tracked fine.

My problem with the SAFE-T System is that there is a different active primary CC for each adjacent tower in the system. There is at least one tower per county and primary CCs are not shared by adjacent towers. Primary CC activity does not normally change (alternate CC is there in case primary CC fails).

[Codeman]

Originally Posted by bacon

Yes but isn't only one of those primary control channels active at any one time? The Indianapolis MECA I system has four CCs (27 total freqs.) like you mentioned but only one is active at a time. I have no problem monitoring systems like that. I just program in all 4 CCs into a 396T system in either "CC only" mode or use all the frequencies and it will be tracked fine.

My problem with the SAFE-T System is that there is a different active primary CC for each adjacent tower in the system. There is at least one tower per county and primary CCs are not shared by adjacent towers. Primary CC activity does not normally change (alternate CC is there in case primary CC fails).

Not necessarily. If I turn CC Only off and remove all the non-CC freqs, I can change the volume (to access the CC indicator bar) and see mutliple CC's being used simultaneously, both within the same site and different sites. So the system is definitely using multiple CC's at times.

Regardless of what's being used by the system I'm monitoring, though, the 396 scans them all and will stop on any of the CC's when it detects a signal.

[thebassmasterj]

The name of a talkgroup is to long...Ihad the same problem..it would error out at abou 85% on me too