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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-22-2017, 4:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milf View Post
It happens on DMR conversions of former LTR or Legacy Motorola SmartNet/SmartZone systems. I set it for ID Search, and suddenly there is an TAG already on the TG that pops up on an system that has NEVER HAD TGs LISTED !!! After I went in to look, the ID Tagging was from the DEPRECATED Motorola SmartNet system! How in Hades did it grab Tags from an system that was fully deprecated and thus not in the global listings anywhere for normal access, and is NOT in the displayed systems lists? I now begin to think maybe we have an security risk here! No scanner should be able to grab any data from an system that is deprecated and thus removed from normal display/activity....

Specifically...
THIS SYSTEM - Warren Township Schools Trunking System, Warren Township, Indiana - Scanner Frequencies

I thought maybe this was some hidden function in the MotoTRBO CC stream that the BCD436HP had found and was displaying. Now I see its not, and will have to go in and kill the whole new listing of TGS until proper Ident is done....

I just hope there is not also false positives on the TG numbering going on here!
I see via the link that there are no Alpha tags for the system, but if you look in Sentinel there are TGIDs with Alpha tags. So the tags you are seeing are actually in your radio.
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Old 03-22-2017, 4:33 PM
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They were till I deleted them all a few minutes ago from the db. They were not in radio before I did search and so on. I deprecated the old system before I ever bought the 436. One of the main reasons I bought it and paid for the DMR upgrade was to figure out that and other systems for the db as an admin.

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 03-22-2017, 4:34 PM
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I have seen this from time to time with a large networked MotoTrbo trunk system.

An example, Talk Group 34 on that system is a private ambulance service. From time to time that TG, along with it's Alpa Tag will display, but the radio traffic is from a towing company that also uses the system.

The Ambulance TG is programmed into my scanner, but the towing company is not. The system is set up for ID Scanning, not ID searching.

It's not very frequent, and when it happens, it only seems to occur during one or two transmissions, then the TG display and audio match.

Q1. MotoTrbo trunk system.

Q2. How is it wrong?

Talk Group 34 on that system is a private ambulance service. From time to time that TG, along with it's Alpa Tag will display, but the radio traffic is from a towing company that also uses the system.

Q3. No.

Q4. Does it occur from the middle of a conversation?

Not that I have observed.

Q5. Does it keep the wrong TGID display during a conversation?

Yes.

Q6. Does it occur also in ID scan mode?

I've only seen it in ID Scan mode, haven't checked ID Search mode.

Q7. Does it occur also for system ID, site ID, or unit ID?

Unknown.

Q8. How often does it occur?

It's hard to say. Not frequently, so far without a discernible pattern.

Last edited by garys; 03-22-2017 at 4:41 PM..
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 03-22-2017, 7:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milf View Post
They were till I deleted them all a few minutes ago from the db. They were not in radio before I did search and so on. I deprecated the old system before I ever bought the 436. One of the main reasons I bought it and paid for the DMR upgrade was to figure out that and other systems for the db as an admin.

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I see what you are saying now. I think this thread has to do with the radio showing false TGIDs not bad data on RR.
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Old 03-22-2017, 7:13 PM
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Ummm it showing the tags that did not exist on newly found tgs fits this exactly.

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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 03-22-2017, 7:33 PM
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Q1. On which systems (P25, MOT, DMR, EDACS, LTR) does it occur?
Talkgroup ID from CON system shows on CAP system.

Q2. How is it wrong?
For example, will be TGID 256 incorrect to 33024? (like Hex 0x0100 -> 0x8100)
If so, is it a fixed value whenever it occurs or a random value?
Unknown. In my test there were only 2 talkgroups involved. 4109 on a CON system. 15 on a CAP system. Talkgroups 15 frequently was shown incorrectly as 4109.

Q3. Does the scanner display a TGID that is stored in another system? Yes
For example, maybe P25 TGID displayed as DMR TGID? CON talkgroup displayed on CAP system.
For example, maybe the TGID of DMR Site 1 displayed as the TGID of DMR Site 2? N/A
If so, is it a fixed pattern whenever it occurs or a random pattern?
Fixed pattern. Talkgroup active from previous system.

Q4. Does it occur from the middle of a conversation?
No

Q5. Does it keep the wrong TGID display during a conversation?
Yes

Q6. Does it occur also in ID scan mode?
Unknown. Both systems were in ID Search.

Q7. Does it occur also for system ID, site ID, or unit ID?
Unit ID with talkgroup ID at times.

Q8. How often does it occur?
I was able to force it to occur with talkgroups active on two different systems.
I was able to repro the false talkgroup ID issue. Take a look at the video in the link below:

https://youtu.be/_hRd0mysOlY

My setup
Firmware 1.11.23

Two systems are active:

SRP Full 1 (CON)
Talkgroup 4109
Radio ID 105051

Wild Horse Pass No ID 2 (CAP)
Talkgroup 15
Various Radio IDs

During the video, you will notice that talkgroup 4109 shows up on "Wild Horse Pass No ID 2" system. This is not valid. The valid talkgroup should be 15. You will also notice that time 0:29 previous Radio ID 105051 sticks with the invalid talkgroup 4109 on the "Wild Horse Pass No ID 2" system.
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 03-22-2017, 8:12 PM
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Q1. EDACS ProVoice. Harrisonburg-Rockingham County Public Safety Trunking System, Harrisonburg, Virginia - Scanner Frequencies

Q2. Random & "temporary" TG's seem to be "created" when more than one TG are patched with each other. TG 8258 Tac 1 patched with TG 8259 Tac 2 could show up as TG 15, 42, 60 or 4818 (or a hundred others). The patched traffic will not show up on 8258 or 8259, however. This will always occur whenever any TG's are patched on this system.

Q3. No

Q4. No

Q5. Yes. You can hold on the temporary TG throughout the whole call/ conversation. Temporary TG continues until patch is broken by ECC personnel.

Q6. Yes/ No. It will only display in ID Search mode... but ALL patched traffic will be missed if the scanner is in ID Scan mode since the temporary TG's that are made are different each time they are displayed.

Q7. system ID- I have not noticed
Site ID- No
Unit ID- It used to display some incorrect (it was always consistent- just an incorrect ID)and some correct unit Radio Unit ID's. However after a firmware update (possibly with the DMR firmware release) the RID's are correct each time.

Q8. Each time more than one TG is joined together.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 03-22-2017, 8:16 PM
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Two more repro videos.

These are the systems and talkgroups involved:
SRP Full 1 (CON)
Talkgroup 4201

Wild Horse Pass No ID 2 (CAP)
Talkgroup 10

Invalid talkgroup 4201 showing up on "Wild Horse Pass No ID 2" system
https://youtu.be/6_buro1kKbM

Invalid talkgroup 4201 showing up on "Wild Horse Pass No ID 2" system and Invalid talkgroup 10 showing up on "SRP Full 1" system.
https://youtu.be/cpNyRohVud0

In my case, the invalid talkgroups come from the previous system in the scan list.
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2017, 7:10 AM
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I should have noted and referenced to use the latest test build: http://info.uniden.com/twiki/pub/Par...P_V1_11_23.zip
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2017, 7:13 AM
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Not Found

The requested URL /twiki/pub/PartnerWeb/BCDx36HP_V1_11_23.zip was not found on this server.
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2017, 7:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milf View Post
Not Found

The requested URL /twiki/pub/PartnerWeb/BCDx36HP_V1_11_23.zip was not found on this server.
I just clicked the link in Upman's reply. It worked. I downloaded the file.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2017, 7:56 AM
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Apparently fixed, as I just tried again and it worked. Now just have to take the .bin, and find where I need to stick it.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2017, 9:53 AM
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4411 452.3250/2 CC 9 387 4444 NFM 2 00:00:07 03/23/17 10:08:57 03/23/17 10:09:15 Triangle Communications DMR - Unknown - TGID:4411 MotoTRBO Trunk CON
4411 462.2750/2 CC 5 187 NFM 1 00:00:01 03/23/17 10:09:26 03/23/17 10:09:27 Schenker Logistics - Unknown - TGID:4411 DMR One Frequency DMR
5053 463.4875/2 CC 5 225 NFM 1 00:00:01 03/23/17 09:32:53 03/23/17 09:32:54 Schenker Logistics - Unknown - TGID:5053 DMR One Frequency DMR
5053 452.3250/2 CC 9 387 5596 NFM 2 00:00:14 03/23/17 10:16:42 03/23/17 10:22:17 Triangle Communications DMR - Unknown - TGID:5053 MotoTRBO Trunk CON

Copy & paste from Unitrunker. Triangle and Schenker are both small businesses, and the odds of them both having identical 4-digit talkgroups is pretty small.

Scanner is 436 running latest test firmware .23.
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2017, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonwienke View Post
4411 452.3250/2 CC 9 387 4444 NFM 2 00:00:07 03/23/17 10:08:57 03/23/17 10:09:15 Triangle Communications DMR - Unknown - TGID:4411 MotoTRBO Trunk CON
4411 462.2750/2 CC 5 187 NFM 1 00:00:01 03/23/17 10:09:26 03/23/17 10:09:27 Schenker Logistics - Unknown - TGID:4411 DMR One Frequency DMR
5053 463.4875/2 CC 5 225 NFM 1 00:00:01 03/23/17 09:32:53 03/23/17 09:32:54 Schenker Logistics - Unknown - TGID:5053 DMR One Frequency DMR
5053 452.3250/2 CC 9 387 5596 NFM 2 00:00:14 03/23/17 10:16:42 03/23/17 10:22:17 Triangle Communications DMR - Unknown - TGID:5053 MotoTRBO Trunk CON

Copy & paste from Unitrunker. Triangle and Schenker are both small businesses, and the odds of them both having identical 4-digit talkgroups is pretty small.

Scanner is 436 running latest test firmware .23.
Wow....

Just for arguments sake. Do you or anyone you know have SDR or a TRX to run against those systems?
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2017, 10:23 AM
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From previous testing, I know that all of Schenker's comms are encrypted. When I hear the TGs on Triangle, they are encrypted, so I know it's actually Schenker talking, not Triangle.

I've reversed the scan direction, to see if Schenker's TGs show up under the previous system instead of the next (most likely Martin's Famous Pastry Shoppe).

I suspect that when the scanner is switching systems, some variable(s) aren't being reinitialized and therefore the TG is showing up as part of the wrong system. Reversing scan direction should change which "wrong" system the TG is shown under.
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Old 03-23-2017, 10:47 AM
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4204 463.4875/2 CC 5 223 NFM 1 00:00:00 03/23/17 11:25:08 03/23/17 11:25:08 Schenker Logistics - Unknown - TGID:4204 DMR One Frequency DMR
4204 452.3250/2 CC 9 391 4417 NFM 13 00:00:59 03/23/17 07:18:42 03/23/17 11:28:01 Triangle Communications DMR - Unknown - TGID:4204 MotoTRBO Trunk CON
4204 451.8250/1 CC 8 280 4340 NFM 3 00:00:12 03/23/17 11:38:39 03/23/17 11:38:53 Valley Rural Electric Cooperative - Unknown - TGID:4204 MotoTRBO Trunk CON

Switching scan direction changed this talkgroup from duplicate to triplicate.

It was showing under Triangle and Valley, switching scan direction makes it show as a Schenker group, too. I believe it is actually a Triangle group.
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Old 03-23-2017, 12:02 PM
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It would appear that occasionally the bug can cause a TG to be shown more than one system off the correct one in the scan order sometimes:

4204 463.4875/2 CC 5 79 NFM 3 00:00:01 03/23/17 11:25:08 03/23/17 12:08:06 Schenker Logistics - Unknown - TGID:4204 DMR One Frequency DMR
4204 451.3375/1 CC 1 286 NFM 1 00:00:00 03/23/17 12:35:01 03/23/17 12:35:01 Summit Health - Unknown - TGID:4204 MotoTRBO Trunk CAP
4204 452.3250/2 CC 9 398 4218 NFM 35 00:02:04 03/23/17 07:18:42 03/23/17 12:40:43 Triangle Communications DMR - Unknown - TGID:4204 MotoTRBO Trunk CON
4204 451.8250/1 CC 8 280 4340 NFM 3 00:00:12 03/23/17 11:38:39 03/23/17 11:38:53 Valley Rural Electric Cooperative - Unknown - TGID:4204 MotoTRBO Trunk CON

When scanning in reverse order, TG 4204 showed up as a Schenker TG 3 times, and a Summit TG once. Scanning in normal order made it show under Valley 3 times.

I still think it is actually a Triangle group, it's hit under that system 35 times.

Last edited by jonwienke; 03-23-2017 at 12:08 PM..
  #38 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2017, 2:16 PM
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how about someone make a video of what it is doing, might be helpful
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2017, 2:33 PM
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The above data took about 4 hours to compile. Videoing that would be only slightly more interesting and enlightening than watching paint dry.

The key thing is that all 4 of these systems are small/medium businesses, and the odds of all 4 systems having a talkgroup 4204 are negligible. The second fact of note is that when the talkgroup shows up under the wrong system, the wrong system is always one later in the scan order than the correct system. If you change the scan order (by rotating the scroll knob counter-clockwise instead of clockwise) you can change which wrong system the talkgroup will display under.

The most likely cause is variable(s) intermittently not being properly initialized when the scanner switches from one system to the next during scanning. The wrong system, color code, and frequency are displayed.

4411 153.6275/2 CC 1 448 NFM 2 00:00:02 03/23/17 14:08:27 03/23/17 14:16:00 Chambersburg Area School District - Unknown - TGID:4411 MotoTRBO Trunk CAP
4411 462.2750/2 CC 5 142 NFM 3 00:00:01 03/23/17 10:09:26 03/23/17 13:38:01 Schenker Logistics - Unknown - TGID:4411 DMR One Frequency DMR
4411 452.3250/2 CC 9 384 4444 NFM 22 00:01:25 03/23/17 10:08:57 03/23/17 14:15:42 Triangle Communications DMR - Unknown - TGID:4411 MotoTRBO Trunk CON

Another example captured with ProScan.
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Old 03-23-2017, 4:00 PM
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Here are the systems in the Favorite List:
Chambersburg Area School District MotoTRBO Trunk
Chambersburg Hospital DMR One Frequency
Franklin County Career and Technology Center MotoTRBO Trunk
Martin's Famous Pastry Shoppe MotoTRBO Trunk
Schenker Logistics DMR One Frequency
Summit Health MotoTRBO Trunk
Triangle Communications DMR MotoTRBO Trunk
Valley Rural Electric Cooperative MotoTRBO Trunk

All of them are set to ID Search.
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