P25 garbled

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N1GTL

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I sit in an office with an EJ Johnson portable radio and a BCD536HP. When we set both radios on a specific 800 MHz P25 police department simulcast system, the EFJ radio hears it quite well. The 536 gets is very choppy, dropping out, garbled at times.

Admittedly I have little experience with P25s and scanners.

What settings should I be looking at adjusting to receive better? We are well within coverage area for the system.
 

IAmSixNine

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Welcome to the world of commercial grade narrowed down receivers vs consumer grade wide band scanners.
There are many variables to adjust.
I set my scanners digital threshold Manual and 7 or 8, and NOT automatic.
Having a good tuned 700/800mhz antenna will help but will hurt as well because your monitoring a simulcast system. Location is the key to that.
 

ofd8001

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Pretty much what he said . . .

You are probably suffering from simulcast distortion. Commercial radios deal with that a lot better because they are intended to, where a scanner is trying to monitor a whole lot of things and something is given up to do so.

A search on simulcast distorion or LSM will yield a lot of threads on some additional things to try if the above isn't helpful.
 

bailly2

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its multiple towers transmitting on the same frequency at the same time ...put the antenna through a hole in the side of an empty paint can near the bottom, much clearer ...or enclose the antenna with cardboard and aluminum foil in a similar shape.
 

werinshades

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I sit in an office with an EJ Johnson portable radio and a BCD536HP. When we set both radios on a specific 800 MHz P25 police department simulcast system, the EFJ radio hears it quite well. The 536 gets is very choppy, dropping out, garbled at times.

Admittedly I have little experience with P25s and scanners.

What settings should I be looking at adjusting to receive better? We are well within coverage area for the system.

Is this possibly an encrypted system and the radio is programmed with the encryption key? If it sounds like this, no scanner will receive encrypted systems:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3H4GAKEXU4&t=6s
 

jonwienke

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its multiple towers transmitting on the same frequency at the same time ...put the antenna through a hole in the side of an empty paint can near the bottom, much clearer ...or enclose the antenna with cardboard and aluminum foil in a similar shape.

You keep posting this even though you've been told multiple times that it is not helpful in most cases. Why?
 

ur20v

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You keep posting this even though you've been told multiple times that it is not helpful in most cases. Why?

For the same reason some people still think you're more likely to survive a car accident if you're not wearing a seatbelt. Probably a combination of inbreeding and a failing public education system.
 

3King

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I have both 436-536 radios and run them on a D130 super discone antenna mounted 20ft above my roof on my house. Go that route and you will have amazing reception.
 

N1GTL

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I have both 436-536 radios and run them on a D130 super discone antenna mounted 20ft above my roof on my house. Go that route and you will have amazing reception.

That is the antenna it is on, up about 80 feet. I was looking to see if there is a setting in the 536 that has something to do with P25 timing or decoding. As I mentioned, I am not that up on P25 settings.
 

jonwienke

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Set the Digital Threshold Mode for the system to Manual, and experiment with different Digital Threshold Level values.
 

3King

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Use LMR 400 PL259 cable. I haven’t messed with any of my settings on my 436 or 536 with using that cable. But you also want your antenna and cable set up at 50ft or less. Like your antenna 30ft high and your cable 50ft long. That is what I am running right now. I live in Washington state. 45 mins north of Portland Oregon, And I can monitor everything from Portland Oregon to Bellingham Washington on my set up. Crystal clear. I live by silver lake Washington. That is just an example of the distance and range I can receive running it that way.
 

ofd8001

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That is the antenna it is on, up about 80 feet. I was looking to see if there is a setting in the 536 that has something to do with P25 timing or decoding. As I mentioned, I am not that up on P25 settings.

When editing the Favoritest List in Sentinel, go to the System, then highlight the site. On the right pane, click the Options tab. You will see settings for Attenuator, Digital Threshold Mode and Digital Threshold level. You can try tinkering with these settings to come up with the best combination to reduce this distortion issue.

When it comes to simulcast distortion, the worst thing you can do is improve your antenna system, unless it is a directional antenna pointed at one site. If it's a non-directional antenna this problem happens because your scanner is receiving multiple sites. A taller antenna with better feed line means even more sites could be received to garble the signal even more.

My local system is a simulcast system. I got pristine audio on it the other day when I removed my car antenna mast just before going through the car wash. So a worse antenna can be better.
 

N1GTL

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Use LMR 400 PL259 cable.....

And take down my 7/8" heliax???

I'll try the digital threshold setting. Monitoring a trunked simulcast I don't have any issues; it's just this one department. I don't care too much about hearing it in all honesty but if there could be better settings, I'd rather have them in there.

Thanks
 

fredva

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Use LMR 400 PL259 cable. I haven’t messed with any of my settings on my 436 or 536 with using that cable. But you also want your antenna and cable set up at 50ft or less. Like your antenna 30ft high and your cable 50ft long. That is what I am running right now. I live in Washington state. 45 mins north of Portland Oregon, And I can monitor everything from Portland Oregon to Bellingham Washington on my set up. Crystal clear. I live by silver lake Washington. That is just an example of the distance and range I can receive running it that way.

You might want to learn more about the problem of simulcast distortion. The solution has nothing to do with increasing signal reception through better cable, etc., since getting too much signal from too many towers is what creates the problem.
 

jonwienke

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And take down my 7/8" heliax???

I'll try the digital threshold setting. Monitoring a trunked simulcast I don't have any issues; it's just this one department.

If it's only one department on the system that has issues, then your problem is NOT simulcast distortion. Simulcast affects all traffic on the system equally, regardless of talkgroup or department.
 

werinshades

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If it's only one department on the system that has issues, then your problem is NOT simulcast distortion. Simulcast affects all traffic on the system equally, regardless of talkgroup or department.

What system was it? All these suggestions and might just be encrypted, and the radio has the encryption key or just too far away for a "scanner" to decode it.
 

bailly2

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admin, how do you block a user so you dont see their comments anymore?
 
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jonwienke

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oh i see why jon wineke gets so upset by my comments about paint cans enclosing antennas, he is a professional, does scanner software support, i assume he sells yagi antennas and if people are just enclosing the stock antenna with stuff around the house then why buy a yagi antenna? just guessing, that the only reason i can think of why they would get upset about me trying to help someone with simulcast distortion.

I don't sell antennas. I object to your recommendations because they will cause more problems than they solve for the majority of people who try them.

What you recommend only works in a very narrow set of circumstances, specifically when the strongest tower signal is significantly stronger than the other towers' signals, and enclosing the antenna in a paint can attenuates the signal just exactly enough that all but the strongest tower's signals are pushed below the noise level, so that the receiver can only detect the strongest tower's signal. It's a rare occurrence for the following reasons:

1. For your suggestion to work, there has to be a significant signal level difference between the strongest signal and the next strongest signal, but the power levels still have to be close enough together to cause distortion. If the signal power levels are too close together (e.g. less than 3dB), sticking the antenna in a paint can will attenuate them all into oblivion together. If the signal power levels are too far apart (e.g. more than 10dB), then simulcast distortion isn't an issue. There is a only a narrow window of power level difference between the strongest signal and the next-strongest signal where attenuation has the potential to be useful.

2. The second problem is that sticking the antenna in the paint can has to attenuate the signal EXACTLY the right amount to attenuate the weaker signal(s) below the receiver's noise level, but keep the strongest signal far above the noise level to get good decode. If you're off by more than a few dB, then you will still have high decode error rates, either because you haven't gotten rid of the simulcast distortion (not enough attenuation), or because you've attenuated all the strongest signal too close to the noise floor (too much attenuation).

In most cases where simulcast distortion is an issue, no amount of signal attenuation will help because the signal power levels from various towers will be too close together to successfully isolate one by attenuating the others below the noise floor. And even in the rare cases where the signal power levels differ enough for attenuation to potentially be useful, sticking the antenna in a paint can is unlikely to apply the correct amount of attenuation.

In summary, your solution works for you because of dumb luck--you have a mild case of simulcast where there is enough of a signal power difference for signal attenuation to have a chance of being useful, AND sticking your antenna in a paint can just happens to attenuate the signal the correct amount for YOUR specific reception conditions. But neither of those conditions are likely to be true for anyone else trying your advice.

A variable attenuator has a better chance of working than sticking the antenna in a paint can, because you can control the amount of attenuation, and adjust it for best decode. But even that won't help in situations where the signal levels of the various towers are within a few dB of each other.
 
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