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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2009, 12:31 PM
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Default P25 tdma

There is a discussion on the Scan DC blog in reference to Loudoun County and PG County. They are apparently deploying a TDMA backwards compatible system for testing in anticipation of Phase II of P25. The concern is that apparently the current market digital trunkers cannot translate the audio when the system is operating in that mode. My question to UP Man or anyone else that has relevant info is, Is Uniden looking at incorporating P25 TDMA in any future products?
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:40 PM
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It's been stated many times in the past that there will be no comments about future plans for scanners. Uniden typically allows advance notice about 6 months before a new scanner comes out. So we are AT LEAST 6 months and 1 day from any new scanner that could incorporate TDMA.

Plus there will need to be systems in place that the manufacturers can test their scanners on before there will be any on the market.

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Old 12-15-2009, 12:41 PM
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Normally even minor product improvements are kept secret until they are released to market. For something as major as this there are only going to be a few select people at Uniden who will know. The exception to this is when they know they will not be implementing a feature, such as the case with ProVoice, in which case Upman will usually chime in with a resounding no and an explanation why.
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Old 12-15-2009, 1:39 PM
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Let's put it this way - if Uniden does not develop a P25 / Phase II TDMA scanner, the public safety scanner market will die. TDMA is the future.
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Old 12-15-2009, 2:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maus92 View Post
Let's put it this way - if Uniden does not develop a P25 / Phase II TDMA scanner, the public safety scanner market will die. TDMA is the future.
Who has said that they won't?
As others have said in this thread we are aways off from anything showing up on the radio market from either GRE or Uniden.
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Old 12-15-2009, 2:15 PM
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Nobody. I am saying that Uniden will if they can.
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Old 12-15-2009, 2:32 PM
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Given how well *cough, cough* today's digital trunkers work on simple FDMA P25 Phase I, the first generation of TDMA scanners will probably be bricks.

The question is, how long will today's current FDMA P25 systems be in use? Phoenix (and surrounding municipalities) have spent a gazillion dollars on the current system, so unless switching to PII involves the flip of a switch (somehow I doubt it, judging from the pa$t when it come$ to the Big Batwing) it's gonna be a long time (hopefully) before Phase II is rammed down our throats.

Personally, I think it's a mistake. Every layer of technological complexity we add to these radios puts our first responders at some degree of risk - it's simply more pieces of a process that can fail. If TDMA is all that fantastic, why not just do away with the radios altogether and use GSM cell phones instead? With PTT and text messaging capability, we could replace both the MCT and the police band radio with a simple, cheap, easily replaced and upgraded handheld device that will work anywhere in the country with no additional infrastructure costs needed, so why don't we? Because they are subject to failure, that's why. I think APCO has forgotten who in the hell they're supposed to be looking out for. Do you really think these whiz bang digital systems are going to stay up and running during a major disaster? Pfft.

Just listen to the Phoenix digital feed sometime. Several times a day, a dispatcher tells a unit "please repeat, you went digital". And now we want to add TDMA to this mix? Yeah, what a great idea, that'll fix everything. These systems are a joke now, let alone in the future when we are basically giving our first responders $5000 cell phones.

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Last edited by AZScanner; 12-15-2009 at 2:35 PM..
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Old 12-15-2009, 9:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdulrich View Post
Plus there will need to be systems in place that the manufacturers can test their scanners on before there will be any on the market.

Mike

There is, all units in my county are now using it.

I'm ready do some beta testing, they just got to send a scanner my way.
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Old 12-15-2009, 9:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZScanner View Post
The question is, how long will today's current FDMA P25 systems be in use? Phoenix (and surrounding municipalities) have spent a gazillion dollars on the current system, so unless switching to PII involves the flip of a switch (somehow I doubt it, judging from the pa$t when it come$ to the Big Batwing) it's gonna be a long time (hopefully) before Phase II is rammed down our throats.
Well, anything using 700 MHz will need to be 6.25e by 1/1/2017, which in P25 trunking will mean Phase II since no P25 FDMA solution for 6.25 kHz is being offered.

http://www.npstc.org/meetings/Rineha...y%20Update.pdf

So, the answer is seven years - at the most.
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Old 12-16-2009, 6:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freqhopping View Post
There is, all units in my county are now using it.

I'm ready do some beta testing, they just got to send a scanner my way.
I'm with you Freqhopping. I monitor Loudoun and PG from my home.

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Old 09-15-2010, 11:42 PM
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How? I have a 996XT and have uploaded all of the info. from Radio Ref. for PG and can't get crap! Nothing, nada.....

Any help would be appreciated
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Old 09-16-2010, 4:52 AM
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As mentioned in the PG thread (and in the database, and the wiki), nothing out of the box can copy the (pre) Phase 2 TDMA that system uses. It will likely take a couple of years before something comes out that can.

One possibility is to use a discriminator tap and the DSD software and that's about it. The only other possibility - and AFAIK it hasn't happened yet, but the system is just getting started being used - is if an unit affiliates with the system that can't handle TDMA - in that case, the talkgroup it's using will change over.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but trust me, I'm sure other PG county scannists aren't happy about it either....73 Mike
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Last edited by ka3jjz; 09-16-2010 at 4:55 AM..
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 09-16-2010, 10:25 AM
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Uniden isn't going to develop a scanner for Phase II until there IS a Phase II to develop for.

What's currrently deployed are NOT final systems, because there is no Phase II STANDARD yet. Until there is, no scanner for it. Everything would be one-offs for individual, one-system test stuff that may, or may NOT, be compatible with whatever the actual standard ends up being.
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Old 09-16-2010, 6:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave1586 View Post
How? I have a 996XT and have uploaded all of the info. from Radio Ref. for PG and can't get crap! Nothing, nada.....

Any help would be appreciated
If your "How" question was about my post above (#10), that post was made on 12/16/2009, before the switches were thrown, and the jurisdictions could still be monitored on their "old" systems.

Dewey
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Old 09-16-2010, 7:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkipSanders View Post
Uniden isn't going to develop a scanner for Phase II until there IS a Phase II to develop for.

What's currrently deployed are NOT final systems, because there is no Phase II STANDARD yet. Until there is, no scanner for it. Everything would be one-offs for individual, one-system test stuff that may, or may NOT, be compatible with whatever the actual standard ends up being.
Bingo! This Capitol Hill Monitor newsletter speaks to the PG situation, and has comments from Upman regarding the lack of a standard. http://henney.com/chm/0110/chm0110.pdf
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Old 09-17-2010, 2:36 PM
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Hey Paul:

You've got 3 Beta volunteers right here that have already tested the 396/996T version 3 pre-release firmwares for you. Just let us know when you are ready to send a TDMA capable scanner for us to test on Loudon & PG Counties!

As I said on the ScanDC list this morning: I have asked my buddies on local PDs that use the PGPD radio system to "accidentally" leave their radio in FDMA mode. When they are on the air and "affiliated' with the system, that forces the entire system back to FDMA until the dispatcher gets pissed and identifies the unit and tells him to go back into TDMA mode!

If I understand correctly, the PGFD will stay FDMA for some time even after all equipment has been switched over and tested because of all the volunteers who monitor like we do. There are just too many pagers and scanners for the FD to replace the volunteer force radios with TDMA capable equipment.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:02 AM
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Ohio MARCS Phase 2 X2-TDMA. Cuyahoga, Franklin & Lake counties.


Quote:
Originally Posted by greenthumb View Post
Well, anything using 700 MHz will need to be 6.25e by 1/1/2017, which in P25 trunking will mean Phase II since no P25 FDMA solution for 6.25 kHz is being offered.

http://www.npstc.org/meetings/Rineha...y%20Update.pdf

So, the answer is seven years - at the most.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:03 AM
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Not seven but they are doing it now.
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Old 02-22-2012, 9:14 AM
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Phase 2 <> X2-TDMA. They use different encoding.
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