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  #201 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2005, 3:38 PM
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ok, I have read some of this about if the PL does not drop on the receive freq. than tone out will not work. I have 2 sets of tone outs in my BCD396T. One of them works fine. The other which is the one I really want and need to work is not working. Tone A = 1092.4 and Tone B = 288.5

I don't know if the PL drops or not but I also read something about lower tone frequencies not working as well. Is 288.5 one of them and is this causing the problem? If so I sure hope there is a firmware fix to address this. One of the main reasons I bought the scanner was to monitor that set of tones at night because it is my neighboring department and I wanted to be alerted of fires in their district so I could get a head start on the call. Paul are there any fixes in the works for this?

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  #202 (permalink)  
Old 08-08-2005, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMBFireman
ok, I have read some of this about if the PL does not drop on the receive freq. than tone out will not work. <snip>
I don't know if the PL drops or not but I also read something about lower tone frequencies not working as well.
Put the frequency in a channel with CTCSS/DCS SEARCH. If you still see the CTCSS/CDCSS active while the tones are going out, they are not dropping it.

Regardless, it should be possible to fix it in software. If it's a wide spread enough problem, they likely will.

The problem is that the CTCSS can interfere with the tone decoding for microprocessor based decoders.

Joe M.
  #203 (permalink)  
Old 08-11-2005, 7:23 AM
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My unscientific "analysis" of the tone out problems of low freq tones with PLs over the past week or so of trial and error has revealed to me that my radio only intermittently will trigger on a tone-out using 422.1/569.1 A/B pair; it reliably triggers on 470.5/569.1, and NEVER triggers on any of the combinations with tone frequencies lower than the 422.1/569.1 pair. The department in question transmits a PL of 162.2 Hz.

One tone pair uses an A tone of 321.7, about double the PL freq, so the resulting frequency/harmonics reaching the detector must give this radio fits!
  #204 (permalink)  
Old 08-11-2005, 8:42 AM
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We should have a firmware update out within the next couple of weeks that improves tone-out performance on systems that transmit tone-out w/o disabling PL. The update will also implement some other improvements and is currently under test.
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  #205 (permalink)  
Old 08-11-2005, 4:09 PM
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Ocean County Freqs is 508.1875 Can someone help me set up my scanner Plz

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  #206 (permalink)  
Old 08-11-2005, 9:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njscanmaster
Ocean County Freqs is 508.1875 Can someone help me set up my scanner Plz
Since that's a conventional transmitter, just progream a channel in a conventional system for 508.1875, with a 71.9 CTSS.

As far as the tone-out frequencies, you'll have to determine those, and put them into a FTO slot for the frequency.
  #207 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2005, 6:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UPMan
We should have a firmware update out within the next couple of weeks that improves tone-out performance on systems that transmit tone-out w/o disabling PL. The update will also implement some other improvements and is currently under test.
Like the ability to lock out and select individual tone out channels instead of changing the band from NFM to FM as a work around?

In the interim, thanks for the continuous updates and upgradability!!!
  #208 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2005, 7:41 AM
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Now my question is this:

How close does one need to be on the actual tones to activate the receiver? For example, would an actual tone set of say 1082.0 and 701.0 activate on a 396 programmed for 1080.0 and 703.0?

I have been using counter.exe and Adobe Audition to try and determine the tones used locally and it just is not an exact science. I try to use the tone charts to figure the actual tones since the vast majority will be from the same manufacturer (Plectron, Motorola, GE, Reach, Federal et al.) but since many of the towns here use PL I have been having difficulty getting the radio to activate. Hopefully the PL issue will be taken care of ny the next firmware update as Paul mentioned so I can start trying various "nearby" tones to see if they work.
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  #209 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2005, 9:15 AM
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I have found that CoolEdit Pro (same interface as Adobe Audition, so probably the same code) tends to read recorded tones as being lower in frequency than they really are. The difference is usually a little less than 10% of the frequency.

I usually pick the closest higher frequency, within whatever tone system is being used on the channel. (This can be a challenge with mixed systems.) Some tones used in different systems are close enough in frequency to trigger the 396 even if I have selected the wrong one.
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  #210 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2005, 7:14 PM
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Couple of questions about tone outs and the 396T

First, my impression is that the "time delay" timer starts when the carrier drops following a valid detection. IOW, my dept sends tones, then gives the verbal dispatch without dropping the carrier, sometimes the verbal dispatch rambles on and on with info, and seems to be much longer than the five second setting I use.... so I am guessing that the timer starts when the carrier drops. I wonder if anyone can confirm.

Second, is there any overwhelming technical reason that the firmware could not be upgraded to allow tone outs to be programmed for a specific talkgroup on a system already programmed in the radio? I can't think of one, so maybe that is a future upgrade that will someday come to fruition.
  #211 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2005, 7:48 PM
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Yes, the timer starts when the carrier drops.

Tone outs on a trunked system are not always on the same frequency. The 396 cannot scan in tone alert mode and that would be a huge change in the way it works. In fact it would have to look for tones in trunking mode, keyed to a specific ID. I suppose it is possible but it would be a massive change to firmware that I don't think will happen.
  #212 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2005, 8:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pro92b
Yes, the timer starts when the carrier drops.

Tone outs on a trunked system are not always on the same frequency. The 396 cannot scan in tone alert mode and that would be a huge change in the way it works. In fact it would have to look for tones in trunking mode, keyed to a specific ID. I suppose it is possible but it would be a massive change to firmware that I don't think will happen.
Just seems like if it can "hold" on a talkgroup as it does, it could also be "listening" for tones. Its frequency hopping when its holding on a single tg....
  #213 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2005, 9:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoodson
Just seems like if it can "hold" on a talkgroup as it does, it could also be "listening" for tones. Its frequency hopping when its holding on a single tg....
VERY FEW agencies use tone out on a trunked system, and nobody makes pagers for trunked systems.

It also won't do FTO while holding a conventional frequency. It COULD, but that's not the way the firmware works at present.

Joe M.
  #214 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2005, 10:17 PM
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Default firmware update soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by UPMan
We should have a firmware update out within the next couple of weeks that improves tone-out performance on systems that transmit tone-out w/o disabling PL. The update will also implement some other improvements and is currently under test.
so theres going to be another firmware update soon. i can't wait to see what is going to be improved with the new one.
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  #215 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2005, 11:18 PM
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If you have tones on a TRS, methinks it is patched into the TRS from a conventional freq.

It could also be a multi-select on the dispatch console. Either way, I bet the tones are transmited on a non-trunk system as well.

I'd be looking for that freq.

Last edited by ffexpCP; 08-23-2005 at 11:22 PM..
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  #216 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2005, 1:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ffexpCP
If you have tones on a TRS, methinks it is patched into the TRS from a conventional freq.

It could also be a multi-select on the dispatch console. Either way, I bet the tones are transmited on a non-trunk system as well.

I'd be looking for that freq.
While I've never personally seen one, there are those who swear that there are tones on thirs TRS that are used by decoders hooked to the control stations. While that is possible, at least on an analog system, it is very rare.

I agree with you. In most cases, hearing tones on a TRS will just be a simulcast from a conventional frequency. On trunking, it's much more practical to use the built-in paging which is done on the control channel data (no tones).

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  #217 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2005, 7:15 AM
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I believe that the Orlando FL FD, and the Orange County FL FD both transmit dispatch tones solely on TRS, not on conventional. Perhaps someone closer to those systems can confirm. Both of those are relatively large/modern departments. I believe when the various independent fire districts in the county were merged into a unified county department in the mid 80's there was a time when the county did simulcast dispatch on 153.95, but I believe all that is over now and its just TRS. Since these are full time, professional departments, they have minimal dependency on volunteers, for example, so I am not sure there is much need for pagers "in the field". I suppose for a department that does depend on volunteers, simulcasting on a convential freq for the benefit of affordable pagers is clearly a good approach.
  #218 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2005, 7:25 AM
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Default illinois tones on trs

The northwest suburbs here in Illinois has tones sent through their trs. Both northwest central systems and schaumburg. But the other day I heard a fire Lt say that the station vhf didn't work for a tone out,this was off the digital NWCD TRS. If there is another vhf frequency for a simulcast tone out what are they.
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  #219 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2005, 2:24 PM
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Default Question about 2+2 Quick Call I

About three of the thiry departments in my area dispatch using 2+2 tones. Just about all of the departments use 2+2 to activate the sirens, but about three of them use 2+2 for just the pagers. Is there any software that would allow me to identify the individual tones in such a tone out? Or can anyone recommend any technique to separate the two tones? I have tried to compare the recorded tones to generated tones from the Quick Call tables, but it is very hard to compare it by ear for me. Thanks in advance for any assistance.
  #220 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2005, 4:57 PM
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2+2 is difficult at best to decode off the air with measuring devices. Since 2 tones are multiplexed at the same time (like touch-tones) frequency counters have a tough time with it.

I would suggest that the best way is by ear, if you have decent tone. Go to one of the sites like http://www.policeinterceptor.com/emerg.htm that have various sets of QC-1 2+2 as .wav files and do some comparisions.

Since the 396 will not handle 2+2, there really isn't any need to have the actual tones except as trivia or to program a radio capable of these. Some later Motorola mobiles and portables can decode 2+2 I would presume, and I am pretty sure there are some Minitors out there that can do it...
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