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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 12:17 PM
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I am a Firefighter which is why I was able to get the tones in the first place. I have been trying since last week to get the tone out to work. I had it on tone out stand-by last night all night and when I got up this morning the department I was monitoring was already on a call and they were clearing the scene...so I know that it did not work. This is a department that gets toned out several times a day even though they are a smaller department.

Yes, I have a mickey mouse setup but it's running from a Sony laptop with a decent to good sound card and the tones generated are from Adobe Audition. The generated tones sound exactly like the fire department tones...it could be a little bit off but I have an excellent ear and I can tell many departments and stations in my area just by the tone so if they are off it's not by much. I had a patch cable running from the Line out of my soundcard into the Mic in on my FRS radio. I programmed the tone out standby for the FRS frequency I was using and after pressing transmit on the radio I pressed play to play the tones. The tones were generated using the exact Hz and timing for each tone A(1sec.) B(3sec.). I could even see that the tone-out was picking up a signal in standby by the signal strength meter and when switching to tone out detect I could hear the tones come across loud and clear with no distortion.

I have the ability at my station to generate tones for my department over the exact frequency we use so maybe I will try that later today. I don't know of any other way to make it work other than to wait for this firmware upgrade. Thanks for your help but I guess I have made it to the end of my testing ability.

Brandon Thetford
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 2:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMBFireman
I am a Firefighter which is why I was able to get the tones in the first place. I have been trying since last week to get the tone out to work. I had it on tone out stand-by last night all night and when I got up this morning the department I was monitoring was already on a call and they were clearing the scene...so I know that it did not work. This is a department that gets toned out several times a day even though they are a smaller department.

Yes, I have a mickey mouse setup but it's running from a Sony laptop with a decent to good sound card and the tones generated are from Adobe Audition. The generated tones sound exactly like the fire department tones...it could be a little bit off but I have an excellent ear and I can tell many departments and stations in my area just by the tone so if they are off it's not by much. I had a patch cable running from the Line out of my soundcard into the Mic in on my FRS radio. I programmed the tone out standby for the FRS frequency I was using and after pressing transmit on the radio I pressed play to play the tones. The tones were generated using the exact Hz and timing for each tone A(1sec.) B(3sec.). I could even see that the tone-out was picking up a signal in standby by the signal strength meter and when switching to tone out detect I could hear the tones come across loud and clear with no distortion.

I have the ability at my station to generate tones for my department over the exact frequency we use so maybe I will try that later today. I don't know of any other way to make it work other than to wait for this firmware upgrade. Thanks for your help but I guess I have made it to the end of my testing ability.

Brandon Thetford
First of all, I don't know anyone who can detect a 10 Hz difference by ear on paging frequencies. That issue aside...

You're ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN it didn't go off? What do you have the DELAY set to? It could even be set so short as to reset before the announcement went out! I've had that happen several times.

Is your timing within 100 mS or so? If the timing is off, it won't work.

Joe M.
  #63 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 2:21 PM
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well, I can hear it by ear...not to say within 10 Hz but I can tell different departments and stations tones apart by ear.

I don't know if the timing is correct within 100ms or not. I have the tones recorded and zoomed into each tone on a timeline within Adobe Audition. That is how I got the timings. I guess I will just be waiting for new firmware when all of this won't matter.

Brandon
  #64 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 2:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMBFireman
well, I can hear it by ear...not to say within 10 Hz but I can tell different departments and stations tones apart by ear.

I don't know if the timing is correct within 100ms or not. I have the tones recorded and zoomed into each tone on a timeline within Adobe Audition. That is how I got the timings. I guess I will just be waiting for new firmware when all of this won't matter.

Brandon
Waiting would be best. Yes, most department tones are separated by 20 Hz or more, and many times you have a common tone to compare the other one against. That makes it much easier to differentiate them.

Was this the system that is 1.1 x 3.1 seconds? If so, try 1 second x 3 seconds.

What are the exact tones involved?

Joe M.
  #65 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 3:00 PM
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I don't have my scanner yet (shipping out of MA on the 8th, so should be here Tues or Wed), but I have this suggestion for quicker triggering of the tones..

If your paging tones are sent for 1sec/3sec, it SHOULD work if you shorten the sense time (tone duration) quite a bit, depending on how the scanner interprets the A tone. I mean, you could specify 0.25sec/0.25sec and it should decode properly, so long as you have a good RF signal without noise. (If that doesn't work, you may need to do 1sec/0.25sec; as I say, you may need to capture the entire A tone if the scanner doesn't accept the "last" 0.25sec of it.)

My professional radio will trigger the alert even if I get just a small fragment of the tone pair. It may speed up whether or not the scanner picks up an alert, if you 'listen' for less of it.

As some people here have noted, setting a longer time than the tone should be = bad. You are guaranteed to not get FTO working if you specify a tone 3100 msec (3.1sec) long and it only transmits 3000.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 3:49 PM
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Voyager is right. FTO works on the 396 so keep working at it.

Did you take all my advice earlier in the thread regarding Audition? Is FFT set to 4096 in Audition? 5X5 signal? Triangular as thee wave type in Audition?

ALSO.... NOTE THAT UNTIL THE FIRMWARE COMES OUT YOU CANNOT PROGRAM TONE-OUT ON THE 396 BY THE SOFTWARE.

I know this because you cannot set tone durations in the software and those durations MUST be accurate. I just figured that out because I had set the durations, gotten a FTO successfully, and then I played with the software and re-wrote other changes to the 396. Then a firebox got struck 2 miles from my house and no FTO!!! Why? The durations on the 396 got overwritten even though I did not manually change them on the 396. When the software wrote the file, it overwrote the durations to the default setting because those durations wont matter under the new firmware. I had to set the durations manually on the 396 AFTER the upload.

Then, 2 hours later, a fire alarm sounding is struck out as a local box and I got the FTO again!! (mind you, I am in a very rural area and 2 tones in a day never happens!!). So, durations are KEY under the present firmware. AND, like Voyager said, you cannot measure HZ by ear. Did you compare the HZ readings in Audition to the charts posted in this thread? Did you confirm accuracy that way?

good luck...
  #67 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 3:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
I don't have my scanner yet (shipping out of MA on the 8th, so should be here Tues or Wed), but I have this suggestion for quicker triggering of the tones..

If your paging tones are sent for 1sec/3sec, it SHOULD work if you shorten the sense time (tone duration) quite a bit, depending on how the scanner interprets the A tone. I mean, you could specify 0.25sec/0.25sec and it should decode properly, so long as you have a good RF signal without noise. (If that doesn't work, you may need to do 1sec/0.25sec; as I say, you may need to capture the entire A tone if the scanner doesn't accept the "last" 0.25sec of it.)

My professional radio will trigger the alert even if I get just a small fragment of the tone pair. It may speed up whether or not the scanner picks up an alert, if you 'listen' for less of it.

As some people here have noted, setting a longer time than the tone should be = bad. You are guaranteed to not get FTO working if you specify a tone 3100 msec (3.1sec) long and it only transmits 3000.
Smart idea. This would compensate for a weak signal that must simply 'hear' a fraction of both tones. But it could be that the 396 alerts AFTER the duration of the tone. So, if it is set short, it wont alert. Worth a try nonetheless.

Won't matter when the new firmware is released. But Jay I think you are on the right track as to why there will be a firmware release. A weak signal that cuts out would interfere with the 396 reading of the tone duration.....and that could lead to non-FTOs where there is less than a 5X5 signal. After the firmware release, even a fraction of a second of each tone would suffice, so this would compensate for weak signals.
  #68 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 4:07 PM
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I followed your tips on Adobe Audition to the T and compared the tones with the charts...then I got the tones from my FD and they matched up. The FD I'm really trying to get to work I had the tones for and then lost them when a virus got my computer a few days ago. But, the tones I got from experimenting match up with what I remember their tones being so I am 99% sure I have the right ones. I have tried it with both sets of tones and it hasn't worked...so I will try and shorted the duration and see if it works that way...thanks for the tip!!!

Brandon Thetford
  #69 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 5:01 PM
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Did you measure the durations in Audition too? you need to highlight the exact spot on the zoomed in wave where the tone starts and then highlight the exact end spot also. On the counter to the right it tells you the 'length of the clip' and if you do it right it the length of the clip you highlighted will be tone A only...then do it for tone B. Measure the gap too.

Other then that...I am out of ideas. Did you set the alert in the 396? set it to maximum volume 15. Use tone 7 (that is what I use...I know it works). Did you use the correct RF frequency? Can you hear other tones when in Tone Detect mode?

How is your reception? 5X5 or does it cut out?

If you still cant get it after all that....I guess wait for the update. Frustrating, isn't it? But give it time...once you get it all set up and working its pretty maintenance free.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 5:37 PM
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Yes, yes, and yes...I zoomed in alot to where I was zoomed on a single tone. I highlighted from where it started and ended and included no silence. I have not had time to mess with it today. I have been busy programming systems into the software. I will mess with it later unless the firmware gets here before then.

Brandon
  #71 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 6:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
I don't have my scanner yet (shipping out of MA on the 8th, so should be here Tues or Wed), but I have this suggestion for quicker triggering of the tones..

If your paging tones are sent for 1sec/3sec, it SHOULD work if you shorten the sense time (tone duration) quite a bit, depending on how the scanner interprets the A tone. I mean, you could specify 0.25sec/0.25sec and it should decode properly, so long as you have a good RF signal without noise. (If that doesn't work, you may need to do 1sec/0.25sec; as I say, you may need to capture the entire A tone if the scanner doesn't accept the "last" 0.25sec of it.)

My professional radio will trigger the alert even if I get just a small fragment of the tone pair. It may speed up whether or not the scanner picks up an alert, if you 'listen' for less of it.

As some people here have noted, setting a longer time than the tone should be = bad. You are guaranteed to not get FTO working if you specify a tone 3100 msec (3.1sec) long and it only transmits 3000.
The way it currently works, your timing has to be within (roughly) 100 mS of the ACTUAL time it sees. If your tones are 1x3, and you program it .25x.25, it WON'T WORK.

The upgrade is reported to solve many timing issues.

Joe M.
  #72 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 6:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080iAddict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
I don't have my scanner yet (shipping out of MA on the 8th, so should be here Tues or Wed), but I have this suggestion for quicker triggering of the tones..

If your paging tones are sent for 1sec/3sec, it SHOULD work if you shorten the sense time (tone duration) quite a bit, depending on how the scanner interprets the A tone. I mean, you could specify 0.25sec/0.25sec and it should decode properly, so long as you have a good RF signal without noise. (If that doesn't work, you may need to do 1sec/0.25sec; as I say, you may need to capture the entire A tone if the scanner doesn't accept the "last" 0.25sec of it.)

My professional radio will trigger the alert even if I get just a small fragment of the tone pair. It may speed up whether or not the scanner picks up an alert, if you 'listen' for less of it.

As some people here have noted, setting a longer time than the tone should be = bad. You are guaranteed to not get FTO working if you specify a tone 3100 msec (3.1sec) long and it only transmits 3000.
Smart idea. This would compensate for a weak signal that must simply 'hear' a fraction of both tones. But it could be that the 396 alerts AFTER the duration of the tone. So, if it is set short, it wont alert. Worth a try nonetheless.
Smart idea? Programming it so it won't work?

Joe M.
  #73 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 8:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080iAddict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
I don't have my scanner yet (shipping out of MA on the 8th, so should be here Tues or Wed), but I have this suggestion for quicker triggering of the tones..

If your paging tones are sent for 1sec/3sec, it SHOULD work if you shorten the sense time (tone duration) quite a bit, depending on how the scanner interprets the A tone. I mean, you could specify 0.25sec/0.25sec and it should decode properly, so long as you have a good RF signal without noise. (If that doesn't work, you may need to do 1sec/0.25sec; as I say, you may need to capture the entire A tone if the scanner doesn't accept the "last" 0.25sec of it.)

My professional radio will trigger the alert even if I get just a small fragment of the tone pair. It may speed up whether or not the scanner picks up an alert, if you 'listen' for less of it.

As some people here have noted, setting a longer time than the tone should be = bad. You are guaranteed to not get FTO working if you specify a tone 3100 msec (3.1sec) long and it only transmits 3000.
Smart idea. This would compensate for a weak signal that must simply 'hear' a fraction of both tones. But it could be that the 396 alerts AFTER the duration of the tone. So, if it is set short, it wont alert. Worth a try nonetheless.
Smart idea? Programming it so it won't work?

Joe M.
His intentions were good.
  #74 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 8:49 PM
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With all due respect meant to everyone involved, this thread and the parent 396 thread have some people in it that need to take a deep breath and stop being hostile towards others. Specifically, people giving other people grief about well-intentioned theories on fire tone outs, complete with the 'rolleyes' icon, as if they were a waste of space; and people actually yelling and shouting (textually) at one another about what is and isn't a P25 system.

If you fit this description, please get off the computer for a while; take a break. In my opinion, you are being rude, and it is neither welcomed nor appreciated.

I will be opting out of these threads starting immediately, as I am not interested in bearing withness to the attitude being presented as described above. As well, I fear that if I continue to be a part of these discussions, I will post something even more disruptive than this post, and I don't want to do that.

Those who wish to talk to me can PM me or talk to me in other threads.
  #75 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 9:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
With all due respect meant to everyone involved, this thread and the parent 396 thread have some people in it that need to take a deep breath and stop being hostile towards others. Specifically, people giving other people grief about well-intentioned theories on fire tone outs, complete with the 'rolleyes' icon, as if they were a waste of space; and people actually yelling and shouting (textually) at one another about what is and isn't a P25 system.

If you fit this description, please get off the computer for a while; take a break. In my opinion, you are being rude, and it is neither welcomed nor appreciated.
My reply to you was factual.

Here is is again:
Quote:
The way it currently works, your timing has to be within (roughly) 100 mS of the ACTUAL time it sees. If your tones are 1x3, and you program it .25x.25, it WON'T WORK.

The upgrade is reported to solve many timing issues.
The caps was used for emphasis, not shouting, as is evidenced by the naormal text surrounding it. BY CONTRAST, THIS IS SHOUTING. SEE HOW EVERYTHING IS CAPS? Now, that's not souting at you - it's a demonstration on the difference between emphasis and shouting.

As for P25, maybe you haven't noticed, but a lot of people are programming NON-P25 systems for P25 and guess what? They don't work! Imagine that! :shock: You have to be dealing with a P25 system to make the scanner work programmed for a P25 system. Educating people on how to identify a P25 system is the best solution to this problem. Some people see P25 CAI and think it's a P25 system. Bzzzt. If you take issue with that statement, look up the P25 specs.

I corrected your statement (again, see above quote). I'm sorry if you took offense to it, but like it or not, your suggestion will not work.

Might I suggest you not take things so personally? Not everyone writes things in diplomatic wording and tippy-toes around incorrect statements.

If I say something that is wrong, and I have, I expect to be corrected, and I have been. I appreciate the correction for what it is, and don't worry about the wording or the font.

Joe M.
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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2005, 3:20 AM
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For a frequency counter, I recommend Musical Tuner by W.A.Steer. It's very accurate. With that and a list of Quick Call II tones, I assembled this list of pager tones for Ocean County, NJ (not complete):

Code:
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2005, 12:14 PM
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Default Re: Firmware Update Feature Request

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080iAddict
1. The new firmware ability to monitor several tones at once on the same frequency is great - but - there should be a very easy way to select which tones to simultaneously monitor. I am proposing that you utilize the L/O button for this purpose when in FTO Mode or FTO Detect since the L/O button is not utilized here (it gives an error beep when pressed). In other words, the user can use the selector knob to cycle through the 10 tone settings and lock out those tones which will be bypassed and un-lock those tones to be monitored. This would be perfect for the user to, say, monitor 6 stations during the day but only 1 station at night. And, it would be very easy to change the settings by simply using the L/O button. It provides much better flexibility and should be hopefully easy to implement in a firmware update.
I thought of another reason this improvement would be great. Because the 396 is truly portable, it can be used at work or home, etc. Because some users work and live in the same county, it would be nice to alternate the actual FTOs between work and home. Unless there is a firmware update, I does not seem there is an easy way to select which tones to trigger that happen to be on the same RF freqeuncy, other than digging deep into the setup menu to re-program each time, or, by downloading software profiles every day to switch between the two locations. Note that this aspect is easy on the existing firmware because you can simply rotate the selector knob. The L/O feature would be perfect under the new firmware.

There is a part of me, wishful thinking of course, that is hoping the delay on the firmware release may be due to incorporating this and/or other ideas.
  #78 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2005, 6:56 PM
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What does delay set to OFF do in FTO mode?
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Hey, is at least one scanner on right now???
  #79 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2005, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph11
For a frequency counter, I recommend Musical Tuner by W.A.Steer. It's very accurate.
Thanks for passing along the recommendation. Once you get the soundcard audio routed to the program, it works great!
  #80 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2005, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whooey
What does delay set to OFF do in FTO mode?
It means it won't let you hear the announcement at all. Set to 5, it waits 5 seconds for an announcement. If it's not received in that time (or at least some carrier activity), it will revert back to standby mode (waiting for a decode).

Joe M.
 

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