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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 9:35 AM
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Default HP-1E vs Motorola Type IIi

My Home Patrol is having trouble with a local Motorola Type IIi system. I have the system configured in a Favorite list using the fleetmap 00000044, which is the known correct fleetmap for the system.

I have entered two subfleets, 600-1 (so I can Avoid it in ID Search mode) and 600-13 (the only active voice group).

When I upload the Favorite list to my HP-1E and scan the system, I never receive any traffic. I have verified activity during these "silent" periods. The scanner does receive the INTRAC digital signals as I-Calls between units (which is why I need to Avoid 600-1, which is where the group transmissions among these units take place).

When I stop the scan, the first line shows the system name, the second line says "Unknown," and the third line says "No Stored TGID."

Is there something else I have to do to make the Home Patrol recognize subfleets as "talkgroups"?

[EDIT] If I enter this system as Type II, it will scan it as if it were an actual Type II system and identify "talkgroups" that do not actually exist. It also registers incorrect RIDs. The correct information has been gathered and verified using Trunker.
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Last edited by DaveNF2G; 11-30-2013 at 9:39 AM..
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Old 11-30-2013, 9:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNF2G View Post
[EDIT] If I enter this system as Type II, it will scan it as if it were an actual Type II system and identify "talkgroups" that do not actually exist. It also registers incorrect RIDs. The correct information has been gathered and verified using Trunker.
That's what I would do. Just enter it as a Type II system. Unless there are a huge number of Talk Groups you can make up a conversion chart (like 4528 = ????). Eventually you will recognize what each one really is.
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Old 11-30-2013, 12:51 PM
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Dave, please attach the .hpe file for this system so we can take a look at it.
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Old 11-30-2013, 6:44 PM
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I'll have to figure out which file it's in. Sentinel does not give human-recognizable names to its files.
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Old 11-30-2013, 6:45 PM
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That's what I would do. Just enter it as a Type II system. Unless there are a huge number of Talk Groups you can make up a conversion chart (like 4528 = ????). Eventually you will recognize what each one really is.
Yeah, but...

Why should I be forced to do it the wrong way? The technology to track this type of system predates the HP-1 by a long time.
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Old 11-30-2013, 7:02 PM
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I'll have to figure out which file it's in. Sentinel does not give human-recognizable names to its files.
File > Export to hpe file... > Select Favorites List > OK > (checkmark next to system you want to export) > OK > Save

You'll have to either A) Change the file extension to something that can be uploaded here (such as .txt) or B) Zip the file and upload it as a .zip
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Old 12-01-2013, 8:08 AM
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OK, here is CC2F.hpe (renamed CC2F.txt):
Attached Files
File Type: txt cc2f.txt (492 Bytes, 35 views)
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Old 12-01-2013, 12:01 PM
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David:

I know that you are a "power user", so this may be dumb question on my part, but why not just create your FL from the full database and then remove the talk groups you don't want?

CC2F shows on the RR database as Type II Smartnet, which usually does not need any modification to use in the HP-1. Albany City Services and Public Safety Backup Trunking System, Albany, New York - Scanner Frequencies

Joel
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Old 12-01-2013, 1:00 PM
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The database is wrong, that's why. This system is not Type II. It is Type IIi, which functions differently. Except for the frequencies, none of the information listed in the RRDB is valid. There are no talkgroups, only subfleets, like Type I only the subfleets are populated with Type II radios, hence the IIi. None of the listed "talkgroups" corresponds with any actual subfleet currently in use on the system.
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Old 12-01-2013, 4:49 PM
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The system is indeed Type IIi; however, the talkgroups listed in the DB are correct. The ONLY type I tg's are for data (INTRAC) and water department telemetry. Program it as a type II and it works fine... Unless of course you want to listen to data bursts...
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Old 12-02-2013, 8:12 PM
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The problem is that it does not "work fine" if one wants to ascertain correct RIDs. When I run the system as Type II on a scanner I get a completely different set of RIDs from when I run it as Type IIi using Trunker.

Also, in Activity mode, the HP-1 does show the subfleet indicators when there are channel grants. But for some as yet unknown reason, the HP-1 cannot store or track subfleets.

Evidently the Home Patrol partially supports Type I and Type IIi systems. Sentinel supports them completely, even changing the decimal "talkgroup" to the proper subfleet indication when the system is saved. I can see it changing right on my screen.

The only way to avoid listening to the INTRAC data bursts in ID Search mode would be to program the subfleet 600-1 and then avoid it. Since the HP-1 does not deal with subfleets correctly, this is impossible.

Also, the talkgroups do not work correctly. Units that should be members of certain talkgroups (like Streets) bounce back and forth between Streets and Sanitation, sometimes within a single conversation. This is a well-known symptom of incorrect fleetmapping from all the way back to the Type I days.

As I have stated several times, and can prove with Trunker as well as any older scanner that can track a Type I or Type IIi system correctly, all voice communications take place in Subfleet 600-13. There are no smaller divisions than that. There used to be several other subfleets (such as SUNY PD on 600-9), but the users have either migrated to other radio systems or, in the case of DGS operations, been combined into a single grouping.
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Last edited by DaveNF2G; 12-02-2013 at 8:15 PM..
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Old 12-03-2013, 7:03 AM
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Another discussion in a different forum on an overlapping topic has sort of resolved this issue.

According to the system's own CC data, it is Type IIi, Blocks 6 and 7 (of 0-7) are Type I with a sizecode of D, and the only voice activity is in subfleet 600-13.

However, in order to track this system with the Home Patrol, it is necessary to set it up as Type II and use the TGIDs and RIDs generated within the scanner's firmware as it searches the system. I consider this to be a bug (actually a lost capability) in the Home Patrol firmware. Older Uniden scanners (prior to the DMA redesign at least) had no trouble tracking Type I and Type IIi systems correctly.
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