All radio signals to go Digital??

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LGLHOOK

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Has anybody heard of plans for all UCAN to switch to digital?? I made a trip to the Radio Shack over the weekend and was talking to the sales associate. He was trying to tell me that the FCC wants to make all radio signals "Digital" (like the TV signals), He also tried to tell me that the only scanner that will pick up this new type of transmission would be the Pro-106 scanner. When I told him that my Pro-96 was picking up UCAN digital, he stated that is shouldn't be. I just shrugged my shoulders and left, he was obvoiusly more educated than me ;)
 

Rolfman

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Ah yes the “Highly Trained” staff at your local Radio Shack has all the inside info on the UCAN and FCC.
 

redhelmet13

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(Chuckles to himself)... If you believe that pondscum from R$ then I have beachfront property in NW New Mexico for sale. BTW... I was an 18 Yr Tandy Corp HQ Alarm systems Tech Support Specialist. (Yeah I know I was a gluton for punishment). Thank God for outsourcing! There are a few good men and women still running a few stores here and there so I am not making a blanket statement about all current R$ folks. Why bother with R$? go with the big U or the big G...
 

bneilson

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The two biggest factors for going digital on UCAN are the cost from UCAN for a digital TG and the not so great performance and history here in the valley.

There are very few digital TGs on UCAN and there is a bunch of reluctance to move that direction due to historic issue with digital (Anybody remember the fiasco on the Salt Lake County System?).

I was recently involved in a test of an alternative radio technology for one of the agencies in town. It is totally different (not APCO P25) and is currently can not be monitored. The issues with it were the same as APCO P25 but it was way less money then what UCAN charges for a digital TG. I think if we see any big move it will be to something other then UCAN for Digital and it will only be for specialized use...
 

ryanisflyboy

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Could this be a long term, but not short term, threat to the hobby? Since I work in the computer field I'm exposed to the 'smaller, faster, stronger' technology march. We have many examples of all-digital communications networks. From HDTV to the cell phone system. Is it probable that this slow and steady march toward all digital will eventually reach the public safety systems (maybe after decades)? There needs to be a lot of technical innovation to make a low cost radio that does encryption and all digital comms, with some kind of legacy support to ensure the old stuff can work at least for a while. On top of all of that, it needs to perform well in a variety of public saftey settings.

There never seems to be an end to the fresh supply of prosecutors and attorneys who want to see communications blacked out (it is a liability having things be open). Nor does there seem to be an end to the marketing radio system companies push. The new feature set is 'secure, encrypted, digital' communications systems that cannot be legally monitored (and are highly profitable). Also, there seems to be at least marginal interest from several public safety agencies who want to eventually go this route, mostly out of fear of the unknown. Cost seems to be the biggest factor today, but will that always be so?

As you know, we (the scanners) are a small minority in our community. When I talk to people about what we do I often get asked; "isn't that illegal?" In other words, your number one enemy is the public perception of the hobby. Many members of the public assume what we do is illegal already, and many suspect us of being up to no good. One guy I was talking about the hobby walked away mid-sentence. He didn't want to be apart of something that was "obviously" illegal, for fear he might be held criminally liable.

Even though it is unlikely, I would prefer to see us hedge our bets. If we can show meaningful uses of scanner technology by promoting public safety awareness, acting as an important oversight of abuse, keeping unethical listeners out, and acting as a source for the media... maybe we have a chance at convincing people what we do is worth keeping around.
 

w8jjr

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I was recently involved in a test of an alternative radio technology for one of the agencies in town. It is totally different (not APCO P25) and is currently can not be monitored. ...

Hope it wasnt open sky or TRBO :)
 
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Observer1

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ryanisflyboy:

I think you're taking the wrong approach if you want to keep public safety systems open. Partnering with the media is not likely to win you any respect or consolations from public safety departments.

The media's use of scanners is one of the big reasons public safety departments dislike scanners. I know of situations where the media has taken something they heard on radio traffic and published it as a "source", only to have that information actually be incorrect.

And of course this doesn't even address the fact that the media has published police movements during standoff's etc based on radio conversations, thus putting officers at risk.

I think the way to keep things open is to present it as a hobby, not be a source for the media...just my .02 cents
 

ryanisflyboy

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That's a really good point about the media, thanks for bringing it up. The main question is this - is it reasonable to expect that all (or most) public safety radio systems will eventually go all digital? Is it inevitable, probable, possible, or unlikely? Maybe using software radios or something? This is an area I'm not really skilled in, so I don't understand the technical hurdles that would need to be overcome.

Here is why i think this is interesting... when you start building out all digital communication systems, the more that system behaves like a traditional computer network. Where each 'radio' is a node on the network, speaking 1s and 0s to another node/router on the network. It is kind of like how those wireless access points work. A $50 radio gives me enough 'oomph' to cover half my block, all digital, all encrypted. Covering a huge geographical region is different. I just don't have enough experience to know why this seems to work for cell phones and computer networks, but not public saftey systems (from a layman's perspective).

To me this seems perfectly on topic with the thread. Does anyone think that an all digital UCAN will eventually be reality? Maybe not soon, but on the scale of 10-15 years perhaps?
 

ke7ovx

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Pardon my lack of knowledge here, but if the public safety radios go digital, as have cell phones, wouldn't there be a need for more towers? for instance, like the cell phones, there's a tower every few miles to ensure coverage. Wouldn't that be the case for digital public safety radios also?
 

idontknow82

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Digital=Control

Going digital is nothing but getting to have "control" over things. They seem to make it out as a large problem. Is this 9/11 related? Or do they consider everyone terrorists?

Since you can't beat'em join'em...I have started encrypting stuff on my computer now, even though its not necessary, but because government is doing it.

Nothing good ever comes from something being digital, except optical or coaxial audio inputs outputs.
 
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N_Jay

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Going digital is nothing but getting to have "control" over things. They seem to make it out as a large problem. Is this 9/11 related? Or do they consider everyone terrorists?

Since you can't beat'em join'em...I have started encrypting stuff on my computer now, even though its not necessary, but because government is doing it.

Nothing good ever comes from something being digital, except optical or coaxial audio inputs outputs.



OK, sure.

Lets just go back to cassette tapes, and adding machines.
 

idontknow82

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Sorry, I must have misunderstood this:

Don't know of any cassette decks having any optical or coaxial DIGITAL outputs, unless its a real expensive one....But lets get back on track here. Going to a digital radio system is a waste of taxpayer money and isnt necessary and more likely unmonitorable. Thats why digital is bad. Just like Music that has "Digital rights management" (DRM).
 

LGLHOOK

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I just think the lack of knowledge by the salesman was a ploy to get me to buy a 106, after all he has been scanning for about 4 months now and he is an expert on UCAN ;)
 
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N_Jay

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I think your bias is getting in the way of your learning.

Don't know of any cassette decks having any optical or coaxial DIGITAL outputs, unless its a real expensive one.
I guess you don't know!

But lets get back on track here.
If you like, but I don';t see how any of your posts in this thread have been.

Going to a digital radio system is a waste of taxpayer money .
Really? Is that fact, or just your "educated" opinion?

isnt necessary.
According to???? You?

and more likely unmonitorable.
Sometimes, and sometimes not.
But, since when should a system be designed for the convenience of the eavesdroppers?

That's why digital is bad.
Again, according to???? You?

Just like Music that has "Digital rights management" (DRM).
Or is it good? Are you an artist?
Do you product any work of value?
Do you desire to have that work stolen?

Now, back to the topic.

With the heavy investment in Motorola trunking, I would guess UCAN would head down the P25 path.
Any other directing would require a near complete replacement and cut off any hopes of grant funding.
(But this is just an educated guess)
 

idontknow82

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I think your bias is getting in the way of your learning.


I guess you don't know!


If you like, but I don';t see how any of your posts in this thread have been.


Really? Is that fact, or just your "educated" opinion?


According to???? You?


Sometimes, and sometimes not.
But, since when should a system be designed for the convenience of the eavesdroppers?


Again, according to???? You?


Or is it good? Are you an artist?
Do you product any work of value?
Do you desire to have that work stolen?

Now, back to the topic.

With the heavy investment in Motorola trunking, I would guess UCAN would head down the P25 path.
Any other directing would require a near complete replacement and cut off any hopes of grant funding.
(But this is just an educated guess)

So your pro unmonitorable and pro digital, and pro government, and pro secrecy? Maybe you should put that in your signature. Maybe we should ignore each other? Or come to an agreement?
 
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N_Jay

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So your pro unmonitorable
Did I say that?

pro digital,
Sometimes, but really like the elegance of analog.

pro government,
Where did I say that (again), but not anti government.
WTF does pro or anti government fit in this discussion anyhow?

pro secrecy?
Again, you are jumping to conclusions,

Maybe you should put that in your signature.
Put what in my signature?
Your asinine assumptions?

Or come to an agreement?
We could if you were rational, but that is not likely.
 

mancow

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Analog video (VHS) tapes often employed anti copy (guess they could have called it ARM, Analog Rights Management). This is not a new concept.


Don't know of any cassette decks having any optical or coaxial DIGITAL outputs, unless its a real expensive one....But lets get back on track here. Going to a digital radio system is a waste of taxpayer money and isnt necessary and more likely unmonitorable. Thats why digital is bad. Just like Music that has "Digital rights management" (DRM).
 

ryanisflyboy

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Are there any experts that can chime in? I'm curious if there are any technical limitations (outside of cost) that make digital public radio systems unrealistic. For example, does changing a signal from analog to digital automatically reduce range or something? I am no expert, but I thought one of the big pluses of digital was range - because you could pick out a digital signal with more noise. Is that true?

I don't know what the likes of Motorola and competitors are turning out these days. I looked around on Motorola's site, and they seem to be pushing P25 radios. Here is one:

http://www.motorola.com/staticfiles...021_APX 7000 data sheet FINAL.pdf?localeId=33

Now, some of these specifications I actually do understand. I use these same technologies in the computer industry every day. I'm sure this radio costs tons of money today, but maybe it will be affordable in 5 years? You gotta admit, this radio is friggen amazing. Top features I thought were cool:

* Integrated GPS.
* Voice and data integration (in one device).
* MicroSD removable memory.
* USB programmable.
* ADP, AES, DES, DES-XL, DES-OFB, DVP-XL encryption with 1024 bit keys (can you say unbreakable!?)
* A dedicated vector based random number generator. Wow. You don't even have one of these in your computer.
* Tamper protection system.

It goes on. Now I'm sure there are even more secure radios. However, from a 'practical' security perspective, this thing appears highly secure. Even if you wanted to break it, you'd need to do some pretty radical stuff (and have LOTS of money to burn).

Now to my point. Motorola seems to be pushing digital radios for public safety systems REALLY hard. It is the top links everywhere on their 'business' web site. These things are plastered all over the public safety system section. Now I'm no expert, but isn't Motorola known for at least being some what in touch with what customers (read - the police) want? Why would they be pushing these all digital, super encrypted radio systems toward the public safety sector if no one was buying?

I'm speculating here, but I'd venture a guess that these systems are quickly becoming more affordable than their analog counterparts. Motorola is selling these because they make financial sense to the public saftey radio system administrators that buy them. And, seeing how UCAN seems to be a Motorola poster child, how long do we have to wait before all you hear on your Pro-106 is the buzzing of encrypted bits on your speaker? Is it inevitable, probable, possible, or unlikely?
 
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