UHP mis-use of ten codes

[Observer1]

Originally Posted by quarterwave

Codes are leftover from a bygone era of keeping message short due to competition for and sharing the air....like when police were dispatched on HF.

In the spirit of interoperability and such...all agencies should use plain language today.

I live in one county and they cannot communicate with the next county up....we are UHF conventional, they are 800 trunked....neither has VHF simplex for interops (BAD IDEA to not have) and each uses a different set of codes. Alot of deputies cannot remember all their own codes, let alone the neighbor county's. (The county North of us does have a UHF control base tied to a talk group on their system, but they have to turn on the patch when THEY want it...so it's not an effective tool...plus the Sheriffs are opposite politics and they don't like each other.) Pure BS for my tax money, I can tell you that.

Agencies actually do a good job here. There are different codes, however most agencies use plain speech for most things, and certainly do when assisting each other. Most every weekend in Salt Lake you'll hear agencies on each others channels without issues, and large things like Trolley Square went very smoothly.

Might be a different issue in rural areas, that I don't know.

[k3cfc]

Originally Posted by lep

To the best of my knowledge "10 codes" mean whatever the Agency wants them to. The trend is to use Plain Language instead of brevity codes anyway. Yelling to your scanner suggests maybe you sholuld rethink how much pleasrue you get from this hobby!

Yelling to your scanner suggests maybe you sholuld rethink how much pleasrue you get from this hobby!
^^^^This is just too funny!

[quarterwave]

I don't think I have ever yelled at mine...but I did have an outburst the other day when I saw, then heard the dispatch for something.

So someone probably saw me going down the road ranting aloud about how ignorant the dispatcher was...she can't speak understandably half the time, gets all stressed and has a 1/2 mile wide attitude and on this one, she didn't know north from south.

[jeatock]

"475 and 471 10-76 10-10 401"

Illinois Translation: "City police officers are enroute to the fight in progress at the Jail." Doesn't everyone know that?

A new EMT just moving into the area from 20 miles away in Missouri translates the same codes as "the Building Inspector and the Coroner are going to Hardees for coffee," and wonders what the fuss is all about.

Both are useful information, but not interchangeable. Both are valid in their respective locations. Hence the push for plain language.

Also heard: "Take the Maysville Hardroad to Buba's old farm and go down the gravel towards the house where the dog runs in circles. It's 'bout half a mile before you get there." Yea, I want to bet my life on that same new EMT delivering a swift EMS response based on those directions.

Another true set of directions: "Take the New Salem Road to 300th Ave, turn left and go two miles." We did, then reversed our apparatus back up the narrow lane for almost a mile to find a place to turn around, after realizing that 'left' only applied if you were coming from the other direction.


In the defense of dispatchers, sometimes that's all you can pry out of a caller.

[zerg901]

I think that the APCO 10 codes provided brevity AND uniformity of meaning.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...OM3AxNFE#gid=0 - How Many Ways Can You Say .....

Listening to Alexandria VA FD feed 10 minutes ago - Engine 204 to Alexandria, notify the gas company - "Alexandria direct" was the reply from the dispatcher (if I heard correctly). Note - when a message is directed specifically and unequivocally to you, I dont think you have to declare its "direct".

PS - Irony was discussed on NPR's On Point last Friday. ' Irony ' is any statement that contains incongruity (ie - the words dont match the meaning - ie "we want a pizza" - all 3 of us - me, myself, and I)

More Alexandria traffic - "received from the alarm company, nothing further". Nothing further - at this time - on the planet Earth - under the sun, right ...... now!

( He said it again "Alexandria direct" - 344PM - same context - same wrong meaning )

[jeatock]

A point I like to make in my training sessions is confirmation - brief and to the point. If I say "Can you hear me now" and you copy back "I will smear a cow" I know something failed in translation and can correct it. If you reply with a 10-4 or similar generic acknowledgement did you mean you can hear me, or you are looking for a cow to smear?

Not a big deal for admin traffic, but it can make a huge difference in life and safety operations.

Do remember that for most normal communications (radio and otherwise) the group of "in" parties is small. If you evesdrop on four guys who have lunch together every day their conversation may seem short and disjointed, but they know what they are talking about. Same applies to agency-groups who talk to each other all of the time.

As outsiders listening to radio traffic, we are not a concern for the folks transmitting messages. If it works it's all good, so 'splain why they should change.

The problem shows up when the localized group-speak creeps into incidents where foreigners have to come into their back yard to play. See the above entry: exactly where is Buba's old place??


'4?

73's

[cabletech]

The problem shows up when the localized group-speak creeps into incidents where foreigners have to come into their back yard to play. See the above entry: exactly where is Buba's old place??


Behind the green barn 1/4 way to the larger pond that has the old tractor and 4 hay stacks. All this AFTER you make a right turn.........!!

[jeatock]

"Behind the green barn 1/4 way to the larger pond that has the old tractor and 4 hay stacks. All this AFTER you make a right turn.........!!"

Or even better, turn down the lane a mile before you get to the hay stacks.

I you have ever been the responder you are allowed to snicker about such things a few years after they happened, and 'yell at the radio' when someone else gives such non-specific directions. Ask my wife, I do it all the time.

There is an old saying in the fire service: "Fire doubles in size every minute." That's subject to much discussion, but at the time the 'turn left' snafu lead to a five minute delay and a fully involved house that couldn't be saved.

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by Observer1

Not sure that any state is 'better' than any other. California certainly has issues and oddities. Right down to developing their own phonetic alphabet.

What new phonetic alphabet is used in California? It has been 31 years since I moved here from New Mexico and all I've heard is the APCO phonetics, with the exception of some federal agencies that use the international version. That is, instead of "adam, boy . . ." it is "alpha, bravo . . .." I've listened to at least 100 law enforcement agencies during my time here.

As for using ten codes to hide a warrant or other confidential info from the suspect there are other ways of doing this in clear text. In the U.S. Forest Service if all was well the dispatcher asked us if we were "ready" to copy. If confidential information was to follow they asked if we were "clear" to copy. The difference is subtle enough that I doubt many people picked up on it.

I understand the original posters annoyance with the 10-4, understood and Code 4 differences and the inability of some communicators to distinguish between them. I worked with a fire management officer on my 3rd ranger district who would never say copy, he would always say affirmative. The two are vastly different in meaning. When I lived and worked in Arizona some law enforcement agencies would use 10-4 for understood and for code 4. So if they got a call for a belligerent person they would acknowledge receiving the call with 10-4 and then later report at the scene "I'm 10-4."

I've worked a lot of incidents, non-emergency and emergency, visiting mucky mucks (politicians and White House types), floods, small fires, traffic accidents, law enforcement, large crowd control and huge fires (largest 500,000+ acres) with dozens of agencies involved. The smallest misunderstanding/miscommunication can result in significant and sometimes potentially fatal events. On one fire at night that was making a run backwards along the right flank an arriving unit asked someone on the left flank (all those on the right flank had retreated to a safety zone) which way to turn at an intersection and the reply was to turn left. The arriving unit said "left at the intersection" to verify and the person on the left flank said "right." There was a lot of tactical traffic so the arriving unit didn't call again to verify a second time. They turned right and things got a bit western for them. They had to back an engine up at 30 mph, doing some damage to mirrors, tires and the tool bays on the rear of the vehicle to avoid a burnover.

I've noticed that law enforcement hasn't jumped into the incident command system quickly or with much enthusiasm. They still have the "we will kill our own snakes, thank you" type attitude of not asking for mutual aid. I worked on a large fire as a volunteer for the Sheriff's department RACES (Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service) in my county. The law enforcement agencies (S.O. and CHP) kept their command post separate from the incident command post. When the national Type I incident management team balked at reopening a major highway closed by the fire, they went ballistic once the IC left their cop's private castle. They threatened to open it anyway. I had one of those "permission to speak freely" conversations with them and calmly discussed the terms of the easement issued by the Forest Service to the state for the portions of the highway on National Forest land and the supremacy clause of the constitution as well as the law that makes law enforcement subordinate to the IC.

A couple of weeks later I was working communications for a different organization as a volunteer. I was told that the lieutenant in charge of RACES was gunning for me for being insubordinate and riling up the CHP at the fire incident. I quit RACES before he could find me. Not because he would have intimidated me, but because I was disgusted with the behavior of law enforcement at the incident.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against law enforcement. I'm a long time volunteer for my town's CERT organization that is sponsored by the PD here. I was a field supervisor for the Forest Service and often needed backup from the SO and the local PD. We worked together well and I often provided them help that they needed.

Given what I have observed and discussed above I think law enforcement will start using clear text when pigs fly. When I started listening to the LAPD in 1968 they were using clear text, while the LASD has been using the 10 and 900 codes. The LAPD used to have 5 base and about 10 mobile frequencies for the entire city in the late 60's and through the 70's and it was super busy on the air. They managed to use clear text successfully throughout it, although they used and still use the penal code, vehicle code and health and welfare code section number for crimes. If they have done it for decades I don't see why other departments can't.

All the public safety agencies have their differences, but they have one similarity. Do you know what cops, firemen and paramedics all have in common? They all want to be rangers.

[Exsmokey]

Originally Posted by Confuzzled

I wish NIMS had stuck to their guns. A few years back, they issued a policy stating essentially that if you don't use clear text, don't bother applying for Federal funds.

They backed down a few months later and changed the language of the policy.

I still think the clear text rule applies to comm centers that dispatch multiple agencies, but it isn't enforced.

Just to clarify in case it is needed. NIMS is a system, not an agency. The acronym stands for National Interagency Management System. FEMA, or the Department of Homeland Security, was the agency that was going to require the use of clear text or cut off federal funding. You would have thought someone had started the flag on fire, peed on it to put it out, then used it to wipe off the apple pie someone had thrown in the face of somebody's mother.

[rdale]

They do require clear text on mutual aid events.

[mancow]

I can't say I've ever heard anyone use 10-4 for anything other than an acknowledge as in (okay).

[k3cfc]

Originally Posted by mancow

I can't say I've ever heard anyone use 10-4 for anything other than an acknowledge as in (okay).

Yes that is exactly what it means.lol

[mancow]

I know. I don't know what else it would mean.

Originally Posted by tahoekid77

I've listened in on many LE agencies in many states - and have noticed that UHP uses 10-4 as 'affirmative' instead of 'message received'. ......[/url]

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[k3cfc]

LOL on here it could mean anything.

[Spadinator]

I have never wanted to be a ranger........

[quarterwave]

Around here "OK on it" is big. Our best (retired now) dispatcher was very good, and always said "affirmative" or "copy ok" to let you know he heard you.

A neighboring Sheriff used "Take clearance to unit xx on channel xx (or stateband, etc)" all the time. I guess he meant for one unit to talk to another directly instead of going through dispatch. This was even after they got their VHF repeater in the 90's and got off half duplex low band.

One issue I see in my area is identifying channels, well not so much now as so many agencies have disparate systems and no interops...but they used to have pet names for certain channels. They would say "Stateband" and half of the state cops didn't know what that was....

[W2NJS]

This subject has been beaten to death, both in this thread and previously, many times. There is NO rule requiring anyone to use the APCO codes in their APCO-published form. To add to the general confusion, a 10-13 in NYC is "assist patrolman," whereas a 10-50 in Montgomery County, Maryland is the same as a 10-13 in NYC. In the APCO form, a 10-50 is a vehicle accident, so no matter what you may think you've figured out, the minute you cross a political boundary all bets are off as to what the 10-codes mean. Plain language beats everything for clarity, and the way agencies are going toward encryption these days, meaning very fast, they'll probably eventually figure out on their own that since the general public can no longer hear their transmissions that it's safe to dump the 10 codes and use plain language.

[Confuzzled]

Plain language beats everything for clarity, and the way agencies are going toward encryption these days, meaning very fast, they'll probably eventually figure out on their own that since the general public can no longer hear their transmissions that it's safe to dump the 10 codes and use plain language.

I don't know if California Fish & Wildlife is encrypted or not, but if you watch "Wild Justice", they put the 10-XX Code on the screen in a graphic with what it means. Can't tell me they're concerned with keeping codes secret.

[k3cfc]

Originally Posted by W2NJS

This subject has been beaten to death, both in this thread and previously, many times. There is NO rule requiring anyone to use the APCO codes in their APCO-published form. To add to the general confusion, a 10-13 in NYC is "assist patrolman," whereas a 10-50 in Montgomery County, Maryland is the same as a 10-13 in NYC. In the APCO form, a 10-50 is a vehicle accident, so no matter what you may think you've figured out, the minute you cross a political boundary all bets are off as to what the 10-codes mean. Plain language beats everything for clarity, and the way agencies are going toward encryption these days, meaning very fast, they'll probably eventually figure out on their own that since the general public can no longer hear their transmissions that it's safe to dump the 10 codes and use plain language.

Yep and since the general public can no longer hear their transmissions when something BAD happens to their family and the bad guy gets away they will realize that encryption IS NOT SUCH A GOOD IDEA AFTER ALL!!!!