VHF Tropo Ducting Columbia WA to Spokane area

[kd7kdc]

This morning around 8:25am local time I was searching the vhf/uhf
and the scanner stopped on 162.525 which yeilded the NOAA weather
broadcast from the Dayton WA area. This is one I have never heard
in the past 12 years. I looked the callsign up on the NOAA webpage
and this is what I found KZZ73 Dayton Patit 162.525
The signal faded below the noise floor about an hour and a half later.

Went to google maps to see what the mileage was between here and
dayton : 151 mi – about 3 hours 21 mins.

[icom1020]

A couple of weeks ago CHP was coming in on 39 and 42 mhz with a Larsen low band whip, LMR200 hooked up to a pro 197. Check here for yellow,orange and red paths

VHF Propagation Map

[kd7kdc]

Thanks for the info, last time I heard CHP on 42 was back around 1999-2000
during the peak of cycle 23. I will have to start checking that area more often
Nice radio setup. KUDOS
I checked that map url this morning and saw the activity thats a pretty cool
unintentional use of the APRS system.

73
Steve

[jrw14493]

Days and nights both, the repeater used by the Nestucca Rural Fire Department will feed into our local mountain top ops repeater. Traffic comes in anywhere from scratchy to clear as a bell depending on band conditions. From the dispatches I hear, they respond to incidents on Highway 101 and I'm in Yakima, WA -- that's one hell of a distance!

[kd7kdc]

Dose your repeater use a PL/DCS on the input and output.
If so has your radio shop tried changing the input tone?
Thats got to be annoying when your out on a call and the
Oregon transmitter is interfering with your repeater ops.

[kd7kdc]

Another good Tropo webpage is Tropospheric Ducting Forecast for VHF & UHF Radio & TV

[jrw14493]

Originally Posted by kd7kdc

Dose your repeater use a PL/DCS on the input and output.
If so has your radio shop tried changing the input tone?
Thats got to be annoying when your out on a call and the
Oregon transmitter is interfering with your repeater ops.

Oh yea, full tonage on both RX and TX. We also get interference from MACC and RiverCOMM on the RX side of different repeaters (the oh so common 154.190 and 154.430) and I've suggested adding in RX tones to block that out and they get all upset and say, "Well, we can't starting adding tones to everything because then we wouldn't be able to talk to the rest of the county." I just shook my head and walked away...

[kd7kdc]

That's sad the radio tech(s) feel that way and scary
that they don't take the fire/ems input since they are the
ones relying on the radios to work for the safety of their team.

[scootz]

It would appear from what I see that Tillamook County and Yakima have a same PL tone for them to come in and be repeated like that. Mountaintops are great for that. You normally wouldn't think that would play into effect, but with ducting that occurs from time to time, it sure can be fun.

I don't know why the radio techs would have such an issue about a PL/CTCSS tone on the output side, unless there are still people running around out there with equipment that can't handle a multi-PL arrangement with their radios. But with all the new equipment that is out there, you wouldn't think that would be a problem. Sigh... Unless they have an issue with every agency that is out there having to cough up some bucks to reprogram a few hundred radios that are probably out there. Budgets are tight out there, so it may be way down at the low end of the priority scale.

My 2 cents here.

Scott

[scootz]

But I do have to say that I think it is fun to listen to places that come up with ducting that you don't normally hear on a day to day basis.

[icom1020]

it's starting to boom in right now from CA.

VHF Propagation Map

Already got 42.400 and 42.44 CHP 167.3pl

[jrw14493]

Scott-

Fire districts around here are using CDM1550's for mobiles and the horrid HT1250's for portables.

City of Yakima fire is using CDM1550's for mobiles and XTS2500's limited keypad for portables.

City of Yakima Police uses HT750's & HT1250's for portables and M/A-Com's for mobiles.

County Sheriff uses MCS2000's for mobiles and HT1250's for portables and beginning to phase in XPR 6500's.

AMR Ambulance is using HT1250's for portables and MCS2000's for mobiles, both UHF & VHF.

ALS Ambulance is using TK-2170's for portables and TK-7180's for mobiles. (the only wise ones IMHO)

Pretty tone capable if you ask me, I think it's just a lack of knowledge of how PL's really work on radio man's part so they are scared to use them. My fire districts does their own programming so it wouldn't be hard, just time consuming to re-program everything. But in my opinion, it'd be worth it to not have to listen to yet another thing when screaming to a fire with enough things going on.

[kd7kdc]

I agree there is something not right because all the radios you have listed will do multiple
PL/DCS tones even differential tones like PL A in and DPL Z out or any combo you can think
of.
Maybe the tech was thinking It would create a domino effect on the other municipalities
that have your freqs in thier radios the other techs would have to reprogram them.

With a glee-full spark of insanity I say your agency should just scrap the analog legacy
system and move to the new 700 Mhz digital trunk network..... sorry just couldn't resist :P

Hopefully your group can get the techs to add tone receive to your radios.

73
Steve

[jrw14493]

It's funny you should mention a different type of system. The County Fire districts had an overpriced analyst come in and analyze the county and it's topography for the best type of radio system to install for the fire districts in the upper valley. All options (700, 800, uhf, trunking etc...) were considered and the ended up forking over a shit-ton of money to Moneyrola for a VHF narrowband simulcast system with 3 different sites. It's been up for a few years now and the damn thing still doesn't work properly.

There are occasional breaks in the microwave between the sites and the voter equipment at dispatch receives that as a key up on the system and opens the mic. Of course nobody is there so it just sounds like somebody is sitting there pushing the PTT button repeatedly and releasing it. Annoying as hell is what it is, especially when there is a Multi-Alarm fire going on. The county techs are "working on it" but can't seem to find the problem. The other day I heard, "Attention all Districts, County Main will be going down. If you have any emergencies, please landline dispatch or attempt contact on City Main." That's how to get a hold of dispatch but for dispatching in a county that's all volunteer? Shit would have hit the fan if something went on while "County Main was off the air."

And of course all the fire districts took the old repeater pair out of their radios because we went to the narrowband system. So the back-up repeater is there and on the air, but pagers and radios all dont have the frequencies for it anymore. So, basically we have no back-up. I have a feeling that eventually the bubble gum and band-aids will fall off both the simulcast system and the old County Main repeater. It's only a matter of time before we have to start talking on 146.660.

What a world, or county in my case, that we live in...

[scootz]

Or you could be like Portland when they got their 800 MHz system. They took out all their VHF radios that spring (back in the 90's).

What happened? They got deployed that summer for several conflagrations across the Northwest. HHMM... I just don't know why my 800 MHz radio won't work past the Metro area. They had to use 3 watt simplex mode. Just didn't do too well with the mountains and hills in the fire area of where their strike teams were deployed.

Now they have a cache of portable radios (on VHF) that they send out with them. Most units got VHF radios installed again so they would have the interoperability with outlying agencies and for strike team deployment across the state.

Cost them more in the long run since they had to allocate new radios since they either sold or disposed of the old stuff back then.

Hindsight is 20/20 at times. This time I think that the hindsight was more like 20/800 in this case.

[kd7kdc]

Joey
Ya better start working on getting the other fire guys licensed for amateur radio
or maybe they are already licensed anyway since you guys are volunteers
you could legally use ham radio for firefighting I would think.

[jrw14493]

Originally Posted by kd7kdc

Joey
Ya better start working on getting the other fire guys licensed for amateur radio
or maybe they are already licensed anyway since you guys are volunteers
you could legally use ham radio for firefighting I would think.

That's something I've always wondered -- if non-licensed people are allowed to transmit on ham frequencies anytime as long as an emergency warrants the use?

Of all the programming files I've ever come across, Kittitas County Sheriff is the only one who has a bunch of different ham repeaters and simplex freqs in their radios -- for SAR I'm positive...

Originally Posted by scootz

..Most units got VHF radios installed again so they would have the interoperability with outlying agencies and for strike team deployment across the state.

That's what makes me nervous most of all if we happen to go mutual aid across the county line. Yakima County is all VHF, along with Kittitas County and Grant County. Benton County used to be on their hell-on-wheels 800mhz system but have reverted back to VHF. Pierce County is part VHF part 800mhz I've heard. Klickitat is VHF on the fire side of things. Skamania and Lewis Counties I'm not sure of...

I don't know a lot about state-wide interoperability but I think I'd be a nightmare...

[scootz]

Lewis County is VHF. Skamania County is UHF but does have some VHF since they mutual aid to Cascade Locks and Hood River occasionally which is again VHF.

Interoperability can be a nightmare. Some places don't want to share their radio frequencies with outlying agencies, but when the "big one" happens, and then when that outlying agency has to respond to assist, then there becomes a problem and they work on fixing it. At least Oregon and Washington do have a common Red Net or State Fire Net to go to that all fire agencies "should" have in their radios. I know that it is part of the conflagration plan here in Oregon.

And since ODF/WADNR and USFS and BLM are VHF, that would only make sense to have in a rig that is going to or has the potential to be part of a strike team or mobilization for any State or Federal response.

[jrw14493]

You got that right -- State Tac for fire and LERN for PD. What's interesting is I've come across a UHF LERN and a VHF LERN. WSP dispatch here in Yakima only has VHF LERN capabilities though...

[kd7kdc]

The VHF Low band has been wide open this morning up to 51 megacycles.