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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2013, 11:51 AM
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That is what I thought at first. After looking I had to use caution, the sites I thought it was lacking turned out to be TRACON sites. That map was clear about it being ARTCC only.

Do you have an example of what you think it might be missing?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2013, 1:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotsofradios View Post
Do you have an example of what you think it might be missing?
The milaircoms map has check boxes for ARSR, SECRA and ASR.
There are a bunch of sites listed as ARSR, SECRA and ASR in central and northern Texas and Oklahoma that are not on the map.
How do you tell which ones are only used by ARTCCs?
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Old 11-14-2013, 5:12 PM
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I know that here are a bunch of ASR radars in the country that aren't part of the ARTCC system. ASR sites are what most airports use to control there class C airspace. Most class C airspace is not under ARTCC control, in fact I don't think there is any class C airspace that ARTCC owns. I lived in Pennsylvania and now Florida. In PA Reading airport (KRDG) has an ASR, its not used in anyway by New York Center. Here in Florida, Daytona Beach (KDAB) has an ASR, I don't think its used by Jacksonville Center, with known radars ZJX owns, there would be no reason for them to use KDAB.

ARTCC might use ASR type radars, but not all ASR type radars are part or ARTCC.

The majority of traffic controlled by ARTCC is higher altitude then most class B and C facilities handle, therefore since the ARTCC controlled planes are higher, ARTCC really doesn't need a lot of sites.

But, can you give an example of one you might be referring to in "central & northern Texas and Oklahoma" and we can analyze it in depth.
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Old 11-14-2013, 6:19 PM
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Here are a few with their la/lon coordinates

QYS Rogers ARSR 30.9431, -97.2686
QAZ Azle ARSR 32.8771, -97.6095
QOO Anson SECRA 32.7041, -99.8810
QSK Sachse ARSR 32.99, -96.578
QAF Afton SECRA 36.4105, -95.4363
Keller ARSR 32.9445, -97.22
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd5y View Post
Here are a few with their la/lon coordinates

QYS Rogers ARSR 30.9431, -97.2686
QAZ Azle ARSR 32.8771, -97.6095
QOO Anson SECRA 32.7041, -99.8810
QSK Sachse ARSR 32.99, -96.578
QAF Afton SECRA 36.4105, -95.4363
Keller ARSR 32.9445, -97.22
Rogers,I believe was upgraded to ARSR IIE, and is fed to both Houston and Ft. Worth ARTCCs.
Azel is an ASR-9. It serves DFW and Ft. Worth Center.
Anson is Secondary (SSR Beacon) only. it serves Ft. Worth ARTCC.
Sachse is an ASR-9 and serves DFW and Ft. Worth ARTCC.
Afton is a Secondary (SSR Beacon only) site fed to Kansas City, Memphis, and Ft. Worth ARTCCs.
Keller is an ARSR IIE, and serves Ft. Worth Center.
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Old 11-15-2013, 7:53 AM
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I am trying to find supporting documents. So far I can not find online websites or docs that show those sites are feeding the ARTCC system. That's not to say they aren't, but I like would like to find docs.

I did find on wikipedia a reference that QYS is used by the Joint Surveillance System, but they never mention if ARTCC uses the data. Joint Surveillance System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I did find a reference that QAF Afton is a DFW TRACON site. Since the document lists other ARTCC sites in the area, I would assume QAF is primary a TRACON site. http://www.ufocasebook.com/pdf/mufon...adarreport.pdf

I found on the FAAs site a spreadsheet of lat/longs titled "ARTCC Radar Sites" https://nfdc.faa.gov/xwiki/bin/view/...CC+Radar+Sites QYS, QAZ QOO QSK QAF Keller are not listed on that spreadsheet. After looking at the spreadsheet closely it looks like that might be the data that was used to create the Military Comms ARTCC Center Radar Site Map map. I do not know how the FAA classifies radar sites to be included on that list. It looks like the FAA list was updated Jul 30, 2013 so it appears current.

Regardless I thought the Military Comms ARTCC Center Radar Site Map page was cool and provided some nice info.
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Old 11-17-2013, 10:57 PM
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Afton doesn't feed DFW. Afton is Northeast of Tulsa, Oklahoma.
DFW has 4 feeds. Azel, West of Ft. Worth, Sachse, East of Dallas, and two on the field at DFW. All are ASR 9.
I can't be much help with the docs you are seeking, but I know these RADAR sites from using them as a controller.
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Old 11-17-2013, 11:02 PM
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I just took a look at that milaicomms RADAR sites map. It's full of errors and omissions.
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Old 11-18-2013, 7:52 AM
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Then the FAA.gov website is full of errors and omissions because not 1 of the above listed radar sites is being listed by the FAA.gov as being an ARTCC radar site.

The FAA.gov list was updated this summer. Why would FAA omit radar sites from a recently updated list, for what purpose?
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:25 PM
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It's the aviation version of the ACA site? Intentional ommision for some reason(s)? Incompetence? Beats me. Plot the coordinates of a few of those sites on a map. Afton as an example. DFW TRACON obviously has no use for RADAR coverage in SW Missouri, NW Arkansas, SE Kansas, or NE Oklahoma. Any reference to that site serving DFW TRACON can't pass any smell test.

Some of these sites I have been inside of, and the display in front of me made it obvious where my data was coming from.
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Old 11-18-2013, 2:39 PM
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Would the FAA's site only list ARTCC radars sites that are exclusively used by ARTCC? If its also used by TRACON the FAA didn't include it?

Regardless, its hard to blame the MilAirComms website for having omissions & errors when the omissions & errors (what errors???) was a result of the FAA, not MilAirComm website.

Still I think the MilAirComms radar map is more useful than a blank page.....
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Old 11-18-2013, 5:22 PM
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Not sure where milcomm got their data. FAA, DoD, or other docs. Maybe just reports from regular folk like you and I. Most of the entries say "Anonymous".

"(what errors???)" >>>Indicates RADAR at JAC where non exist, yet fails to plot the Ashton RADAR to the Northwest of JAC in Idaho.
No indication of ARSR at OKC,GCK,FTW(Keller),Anson,Afton, SAT….. Not slaming them, just stating what I see.

To my knowledge, there is no FAA document/list of the sites specifically designed for public consumption. The info isn't classified. People live in neighborhoods right next to these things. The data just seem scattered about in various docs, depending on what the docs were addressing at the time.
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Old 11-18-2013, 6:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by profiledescent View Post
Not sure where milcomm got their data. FAA, DoD, or other docs. Maybe just reports from regular folk like you and I. Most of the entries say "Anonymous".

"(what errors???)" >>>Indicates RADAR at JAC where non exist, yet fails to plot the Ashton RADAR to the Northwest of JAC in Idaho.
No indication of ARSR at OKC,GCK,FTW(Keller),Anson,Afton, SATů.. Not slaming them, just stating what I see.

To my knowledge, there is no FAA document/list of the sites specifically designed for public consumption. The info isn't classified. People live in neighborhoods right next to these things. The data just seem scattered about in various docs, depending on what the docs were addressing at the time.
https://nfdc.faa.gov/xwiki/bin/view/...CC+Radar+Sites Its a public website, I assume for public consumption. If you read the milaircomm site again, he does clearly state where he got his data.

I believe we're talking about the same radar site page??? Where do you get Anonymous? I can't find a listing on the page in question that says anything about Anonymous. Military Comms ARTCC Center Radar Site Map doesn't mention anything about anonymous entries.
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Old 11-18-2013, 7:01 PM
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Click on some of the site markers, and in the pop-up info box you will see the anonymous I refer to.

" I assume for public consumption." For public consumption, yes. Designed as a public information doc specifically to tell people where RADAR sites are, no. There is a difference.

Keep in mind, when summoned to testify before Congress, the agency (FAA) couldn't account for most of their facilities, provide detailed accounting of funds, or produce an inventory of agency property.
So, you may find multiple docs on the web, but I doubt you will find a doc specificlly designed for the purpose you desire here. It's not a document that there would big a big public desire for.

As for where he got his data. He needs more data depending on his goal. If mapping the RADAR sites in the US is the goal, there is more work to be done.
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Old 11-19-2013, 7:49 AM
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What I know is that I filled up my scanners with frequencies from his site. My scanners came to life. I had found more current frequencies on his site then I had on other sites.

Any site is going to have errors and omissions. Even RR has errors on the Volusia County trunking system, over a dozen that I know of, heck I don't listen to the trunking system very much and I can point that out.

It is hard to knock a persons hard work especially since I would have had a harder time getting into milair scanning without his website. It just seems other local milair monitors to me are so super secret about freqs it makes the hobby more work and less fun. That is why I really enjoy his site.

And he has something I have not found elsewhere, MilAirComms Real-Time Frequency Logger MilAir Comms Spotter Network is great for knowing what is active. I like the fact he has feeds from Pittsburgh as I was just out there a month ago. It was great to be able to see things being logged and program it into the scanner and start hearing traffic.

Regardless if you like his site or not, if you condemn his work without contributing well, we know that isn't going to help any of us.
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Old 11-19-2013, 9:10 AM
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LOR is right in many way's.
That why I don't belong to any YAHOO groups!
I only post my logs to MILCOM@qth.net.

I only have 5 scanner's and 2 are always searching 138-150 and 225-400.
When DOD realign 138-150 and 225-400 in 2004, I started seriously searching both.
Since 2004 there have been major changes in both.

And yes the FAA does put out incorrect information.
Remember the old ATA-100 and now it has a new name and the info is still bad.

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Old 11-20-2013, 9:06 PM
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My comment is only in reference to the RADAR site data. His freq database is good. I use it in my travels.
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Old 11-21-2013, 9:25 PM
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DFW West site. Does YouTube count? DFW ASR-9 Airport Airport Surveillance Radar - YouTube
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:00 PM
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Nothing in that video said or proved its used by ARTCC. To just "say it is" doesn't make it so.

I sent you a link to the FAA list of ARTCC sites, if the FAA's list has some omissions that could very well be true. The guy created that webpage as a way to help, he could only do it with the verifiable data he had. If there are omissions so-be-it, it sure is better than nothing!

Maybe you should contribute your data to him?
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:47 PM
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There is a list of Fort Worth ARTCC radar "antennas" in a report on the UFO sightings in Stephenville, TX in 2008.
The UFO investigators made a FOIA request to the FAA for radar data for that time period.
http://www.ufocasebook.com/pdf/mufon...adarreport.pdf
Many of the sites listed in that report are not in the radar site list on the FAA web site.
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