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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 11-22-2013, 4:54 PM
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"Maybe you should contribute your data to him?"

Good idea. But, I'm retired and don't have access to any (required ?) documentation now. Just the knowledge from working there.

I drove past the Keller site this afternoon, and it's right where it's been for over 50 years.
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Old 11-22-2013, 5:39 PM
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nd5y,

That report is a well prepared work. They do say "The Ft Worth ARTCC is responsible for all of Texas plus portions of adjoining states..…" which is incorrect. Ft. Worth does cover portions of other states, (Oklahoma, New Mexico, Louisiana, and Arkansas) however, Texas is covered by Albuquerque, Ft. Worth, Kansas City, and Houston Centers. (Can't help it. I was a detail oriented type)

You noted the FOIA request, and RADAR sites in that report that don't appear on milaircomm. This goes back to what I said in an earlier post in reply to lor. {" I assume for public consumption." For public consumption, yes. Designed as a public information doc specifically to tell people where RADAR sites are, no. There is a difference. } There are FAA docs out there, and they reference sites, but the audience for the doc is germane to what will appear in the doc. A doc stating where ARTCC sites are, may only refer to sites with a specific trait germane to the doc, such as a particular upgrade, component, or other trait of interest to the parties the doc was created for. As we see in the UFO report you posted, the sites I addressed earlier are published, including coordinates. They were germane to the FOIA.
If someone wants ALL of the site info for the ARTCC RADARs, an FOIA would be the way to go.

I get the impression from comments I've seen on both sites now, some (not you) may feel their work, site, or competence has been questioned or even insulted. That is not the case, nor my intention. I simply stated an observation, based on actual use of, or personal knowledge of the facilities in question.
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Old 12-16-2013, 4:41 AM
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Not sure if this will help, but you could check out Skyvector.com for their aero charts.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:17 AM
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Does anyone know of an "official" FAA map of ARTCC boundaries that includes ARTCC Sector numbers and site location names (such as ZMP Minneapolis Center Monitoring)? Also I've been scouring FAA datasets and I haven't yet found a single reference to Sector Numbers, where do these Sector Numbers come from?
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Old 07-23-2014, 10:58 AM
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Does anyone know of an "official" FAA map of ARTCC boundaries that includes ARTCC Sector numbers and site location names
Years ago I was in a pilot shop in Nevada and came across some charts that looked like standard issued Government enroute charts. But these charts also had all the individual sector boundaries/names/numbers depicted on them as well.

I can't remember what they were called, but like I said they looked the same as the standard issued charts.

To this day I've been trying to track them down but have had no luck getting a response from the FAA as to how to obtain them or whether they are even published anymore ?

In my experience the only way I've been able to get this information is by contacting each individual ARTCC directly. Response varies greatly depending on the ARTCC and even within an ARTCC depending on it seems who answers the mail that day.

Some are more than happy to provide the info. while most just don't bother to respond, one was even almost hostile in replying stating basically it's none of your business.

From the ones that didn't respond I've been able to get the charts after submitting an FOIA request, but you have to pay, usually about $30.00 per Center.

Make a FOIA Request
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2014, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AirScan View Post
Years ago I was in a pilot shop in Nevada and came across some charts that looked like standard issued Government enroute charts. But these charts also had all the individual sector boundaries/names/numbers depicted on them as well.

I can't remember what they were called, but like I said they looked the same as the standard issued charts.

To this day I've been trying to track them down but have had no luck getting a response from the FAA as to how to obtain them or whether they are even published anymore ?

In my experience the only way I've been able to get this information is by contacting each individual ARTCC directly. Response varies greatly depending on the ARTCC and even within an ARTCC depending on it seems who answers the mail that day.

Some are more than happy to provide the info. while most just don't bother to respond, one was even almost hostile in replying stating basically it's none of your business.

From the ones that didn't respond I've been able to get the charts after submitting an FOIA request, but you have to pay, usually about $30.00 per Center.

Make a FOIA Request
Thank you, that is very helpful info! At this point all I really "need" is Denver Center, but it would be fun to have the other 19 as well. I am familiar with FOIA and I was hoping to avoid that route if possible. The current set of "AIS subscriber files" includes a file named "aff_rf.txt"; this file includes RCAG site locations, frequencies and coordinates but no sector numbers.

After reviewing an FAA training slide deck it seems that ARTCC sector numbers appear on Controller terminals as a standard data element. Therefore, the FAA is obviously disseminating official corresponding charts/maps with that info. It sounds like the info. I'm seeking, while not "classified", is probably not published in an "official" FAA publication designed for public consumption.
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Last edited by natedawg1604; 07-23-2014 at 11:49 AM..
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2014, 12:05 PM
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The current set of "AIS subscriber files" includes a file named "aff_rf.txt"; this file includes RCAG site locations, frequencies and coordinates but no sector numbers.
The FAA doesn't seem to keep that AFF file up to date, sometimes it's years before frequencies are updated and more than a little info. is just wrong (ie: the ZFW discussion in that other thread).

I presume you are familiar with the Radio Reference databases on this site ? In case you are not, The first part is based on that FAA AFF list, but the second part appears to be based mostly on official ARTCC sector charts. Most of the information is accurate although it's starting to get dated for some ARTCC's.

Denver (ZDV) Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2014, 12:07 PM
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Default ARTCC Boundaries and Charts

Each ARTCC has boundaries and sector names. Unless this has changed within the past few years, the charts to refer to are called IFR ENROUTE LOW OR HIGH ALTITUDE charts. For example, the Low Altitude chart with panels designated L-23 and L-24 basically covered an area from mid Michigan, eastern portions of Illinois, southern portions of Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, northern WVA, western PA, southwest portion of NY, lower boundaries of Canadian airspace west bound and portions of southeastern Wisconsin. The Center boundary lines are depicted in blue and in the shape of a square wave scope pattern and will indicate what Center the boundaries contain. In this instance, this chart covers Cleveland, Indianapolis, Washington (DC), Kansas City, and Chicago Centers airspace. Also shown are small, square boxes with the same square wave pattern that shows the RCO (Remote Communications Outlet) that shows the frequencies to contact the appropriate Center on. As far as Sector names, they used to be named after primary nav-aids within smaller boundaries within the Major Center Boundaries. These are not shown on the charts. These are shown only within the Centers own facility and are used by the controllers controlling responsible for a particular portion of airspace they are working. Some Centers have many sectors, some less. Each controller is responsible for enroute, arrivals and departures within their sector. Back to sector names. For instance, Cleveland Center has or had sectors named Waterville (VWV), Saginaw (MBS), Findlay (FDY), Northbrook (OBK) and so on.These charts can be obtained from many FBO's (Fixed Based Operators) at many airports, primarily the smaller airports. You might try the internet and key in aviation charts and publications. Try the US Government websites and magazines on flying. Hope this helps. Good Luck.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2014, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AirScan View Post
The FAA doesn't seem to keep that AFF file up to date, sometimes it's years before frequencies are updated and more than a little info. is just wrong (ie: the ZFW discussion in that other thread).

I presume you are familiar with the Radio Reference databases on this site ? In case you are not, The first part is based on that FAA AFF list, but the second part appears to be based mostly on official ARTCC sector charts. Most of the information is accurate although it's starting to get dated for some ARTCC's.

Denver (ZDV) Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference
Wow, so the "information effective date" field of the AFF file is a sham. Got it. I'm quite familiar with RR data; I was hoping to find the source for the second portion of the layout you mentioned, which appears to come from an official publication of some type or another. I guess it will take a bit of digging around...
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2014, 9:21 AM
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At this point all I really "need" is Denver Center, but it would be fun to have the other 19 as well.
I've been working on a project to put together my own charts that depict Sector Boundary, Sector Number, Frequency, Altitude Coverage, Typical Configuration Variations.

The information on my charts is based on official ARTCC sector charts provided by each Center. The actual frequencies have all been confirmed from personal monitoring, mostly using various internet radio sources like Broadcastify or LiveATC.

Out of respect to my sources I don't want to post the actual ARTCC sector charts. In some cases they show things like emergency hotline numbers, dial codes, military info. etc. so I can understand why they might not want them in the public domain. I don't see a problem with just showing the sector boundary's, ID number (for reference) and frequencies though.

Even official information from the Centers and the FAA with their AFF list is not always 100% accurate or up to date as this information is constantly changing. I've found the best way to keep on top of it is from actually monitoring the frequencies. So any input or feedback from listeners out there that are interested in this sort of thing would always be appreciated, stuff like new frequencies or sector configurations you hear etc. (I only cover civilian VHF).

Attached below is what I've got for Denver Center - High Altitude. Always a work in progress but it should be mostly accurate. I'm still working on the low altitude sectors.

Last edited by AirScan; 08-25-2015 at 6:51 PM..
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2014, 10:40 AM
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The commercial providers of record might be quicker to update, especially as pilots rely on their charts for navigation and safety. Try contacting Jeppesen about the information you want.

Also, you could check with the local FBO at your nearest airport.
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Old 07-24-2014, 3:33 PM
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I think the IFR High and Low charts are updated on a 56 day cycle. The airport facility directory, green book, is also on a 56 day cycle. The DoD IFR supplement is also on a 56 day cycle. I think this is also true for IFR approach plates. It looks like VFR sectional charts are update on a 180 day, 6 month cycle. Any changes that don't make the new chart are referenced in the NOTAM file for the airport or ARTCC.

As for the AFF (?) not being up to date I don't know what that is. I know that when a new or revised frequency assignment is approved by the FAS at the NTIA it will be in the FAA database with 7 days. Again it's up to air traffic to start using the frequency when the change is needed. For example when the ATIS frequency at ACY was requested to be changed by AT I engineered the new frequency in 1/2013. There were some questions about a possible 3rd order intermod with an almost co-located assignment for ZDC. In 4/2013 I completed some field engineering testing and found no problems. And I don't think the new frequency was used until late 2013 or early 2014. When the site was relocated the assignment was revised but went into use as soon as TechOPS commissioned the new site. Again if a sector frequency or something like an ATIS frequency at an airport is changed, if it doesn't make the new chart the change will be reflected in the airport or center NOTAM file.

As for the Jeppesen charts being more up to date will they should be. I am 99% sure that you pay dearly for a Jeppesen subscription. The last time I bought a FAA chart, 28+ years ago, the cost between $4 - $8. On line access to the FAA NOTAMs is free.

As for sector names I only know the names like ZDC59, center and sector number. In my 28+ years with the FAA I have never heard a center sector being called anything else.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2014, 7:22 PM
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Default AFF

Air route traffic control center facilities
and communications data base record layout
(aff-file)
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2014, 11:16 PM
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As for the AFF (?) not being up to date I don't know what that is.
AFF = ARTCC Facilites File

You can download it from this link.

https://nfdc.faa.gov/xwiki/bin/view/...Sub-2014-05-29

Yes, frequencies published on Approach Charts are updated or if not covered by a NOTAM.

It's the enroute ARTCC information in the AFF that is not complete, accurate, or updated. I use Jepps as well and they are no better for enroute ARTCC info. either.

If the above link expires you can try this one.

https://nfdc.faa.gov/xwiki/bin/view/...R+Subscription
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Old 07-25-2014, 5:18 AM
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The one thing that ticks me off!
Some ASSHAT is sitting in DC drawing a good salary and not doing their job.
I should have a new IFR Supplement today.
I'm going to compare ZJX with the AFF file.
Dollar to a doughnut it's the same info.
NGA get updates from the FAA and publishes a new IFR SUP.

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Old 07-25-2014, 9:30 AM
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I should have a new IFR Supplement today. I'm going to compare ZJX with the AFF file. Dollar to a doughnut it's the same info.
As far as I can tell they have always used the AFF data for the Facilities Directories (Green Books) and Enroute Charts.

As just one example of the errors found in the AFF, back in April I compared the High Altitude data in the AFF for ZJX with official ZJX ARTCC sector charts as well as confirmed frequencies from personal monitoring. These are the errors that I noted. (I posted this over at LiveATC as well).

AFF data that is wrong = changes required to correct

ALMA 133.3 HIGH = change, ULTRA-HIGH
ALMA 135.975 ULTRA-HIGH = change, HIGH
CHARLESTON 133.625 HIGH = change, ULTRA-HIGH
CHARLESTON 132.475 ULTRA-HIGH = change, frequency 120.125
COLUMBIA 134.975 ULTA-HIGH = add
DAYTONA BEACH 134.850 LOW/HIGH = add
GAINESVILLE 135.65 HIGH = change, frequency 128.425 ULTRA-HIGH
JACKSONVILLE 134.85 ULTRA-HIGH = change, LOW/HIGH
LAKE CITY 133.875 HIGH = add
MYRTLE BEACH 135.05 ULTRA-HIGH OCEANIC = change, LOW/HIGH OCEANIC
PANAMA CITY 135.925 LOW/HIGH = add
SAINT AUGUSTINE 126.35 HIGH = change, LOW/HIGH
SAINT AUGUSTINE 132.825 HIGH = change, ULTRA-HIGH
SAINT AUGUSTINE 134.575 ULTRA-HIGH = change, frequency 135.450
SAVANNAH 132.425 HIGH = change, ULTRA-HIGH
TALLAHASSEE 128.625 LOW = change, ULTRA-HIGH
VALDOSTA 135.625 HIGH = add

There are many errors with the low altitude data as well.
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Old 07-25-2014, 9:54 AM
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Not to pile on complaints, but I forgot to mention that the "aff_rf.txt" file is basically an export of FOUR separate database tables with 4 separate field layouts, combined in ONE single file with line separators. So you basically have to break this up into 4 separate files based on the line separator positions of the field layouts and the record # field. Not the most user-friendly...
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:31 AM
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The English-language sector names seem to be based on navaids or intersections located near an edge of the sector. I wonder who decides which location contributes the name.
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Old 07-25-2014, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveNF2G View Post
The English-language sector names seem to be based on navaids or intersections located near an edge of the sector. I wonder who decides which location contributes the name.
The Airspace & Procedures office for the area overseeing the specific sector.
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Old 07-25-2014, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by K3HHB View Post
Each ARTCC has boundaries and sector names. Unless this has changed within the past few years, the charts to refer to are called IFR ENROUTE LOW OR HIGH ALTITUDE charts..
I get the idea what he is looking for are the control facility version of maps. The navigational charts you refer to don't provide the sector specific boundaries, frees, and (actual) RCAG locations.
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