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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2015, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Except that they are a Chinese company that makes inexpensive radios. Not $35, but still inexpensive.
But not all Chinese companies make junk. Look at Hytera [not Tytera] radios. Great quality, very rugged, with a US distributor. Chinese companies can make any quality they choose to make. When a US company chooses to make a product in China, they can specify they want the quality to be the same as the US made part. Of course when a Chinese company chooses to make a product, they can put ZERO quality in the product, because they know a certain percentage of the American population will buy that product, and not care that it is junk. The blood leaves their brain, & goes to their wallet, which prevents them from making valid decisions. My next HF radio will not be a $10,000 Icom, Kenwood, or Yaesu, but it will be an Icom Kenwood, or Yaesu.
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Old 11-28-2015, 1:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
An interesting stereotype given that CSI radios are made by the same company that makes some of the "inexpensive Chinese" radios.

I notice no Anytone radios were tested (or at least not reported). Is that because they are contrary to the desired result?
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Originally Posted by prcguy View Post
I think the Anyone brand only has a fraction the Chinese radio market and they simply didn't get considered for testing. I have several Anytone handhelds and end user wise they are much better performers than Baofeng or Wouxun, but I have not checked for transmit harmonics.
prcguy
Right at the bottom of the results section of the article it says "Handhelds of 'Other' Manufacturers numbered less than 5 units of each model and therefore, a reasonable sample of each model was not available."
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Old 11-29-2015, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by statebear View Post
My thing is, yeah, the radio may be "disposable" investment wise, but my license is not....
And that is the entire meat of this discussion, or what it should be- not bashing CCRs. Any radio that we use as part of our station is subject to the same technical requirements. Icom, Kenwood, even an APX8000- if it causes "blades of grass" to appear on a spec-an, it should not be on the air until it's serviced.

As a licensee, WE are solely responsible, and should there be an issue, the FCC is not interested in excuses or opinions, they want it ceased. It should not happen in the first place, as hams we are supposed to raise the bar and be the higher standard.

The lesson here is whether using a CCR or an APX7500, one needs to make sure their equipment is in order before using it on the air. The facts are, the lower cost radios are more likely to have issues, maybe due to poorer QC and or lack of TX filtering, but at the end of the day, one should KNOW as ignorance is no excuse.
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Old 11-29-2015, 1:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MOONBOOTS View Post
But not all Chinese companies make junk. Look at Hytera [not Tytera] radios. Great quality, very rugged, with a US distributor. Chinese companies can make any quality they choose to make. When a US company chooses to make a product in China, they can specify they want the quality to be the same as the US made part. Of course when a Chinese company chooses to make a product, they can put ZERO quality in the product, because they know a certain percentage of the American population will buy that product, and not care that it is junk. The blood leaves their brain, & goes to their wallet, which prevents them from making valid decisions. My next HF radio will not be a $10,000 Icom, Kenwood, or Yaesu, but it will be an Icom Kenwood, or Yaesu.
Chinese companies are totally capable of making the highest quality of equipment. Hytera even started out with cheap garbage.. the old "HYT" brand had some dismal offerings.

They jumped on the p25 bandwagon and overnight quadrupled their prices. TYT in changing their name to Tytera, likely will quadruple their prices soon and try to become one of the quality companies too.

Baofeng and such want to make their money in volume. They know a lot of folks want to get as much as possible for as little as possible. They understand the gullibility of people. They will take one circuit board, put it in a redesigned case, and release it as a new and improved model. This marketing scheme works!

They know business. They know what they are doing. They are making money. Their designs aren't based upon their lack of technical knowledge. They are based upon what they know people will buy.

For every 10 people calling their stuff trash, you have 500 people calling them great. These 500 have little to no basis of comparison. Even those who DO know better, will buy them simply because they don't want to damage their $500 HT. I agree. My $350 vx7r is rarely used. I'm not afraid to damage my $50 radio though.
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Old 11-29-2015, 1:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
And that is the entire meat of this discussion, or what it should be- not bashing CCRs. Any radio that we use as part of our station is subject to the same technical requirements. Icom, Kenwood, even an APX8000- if it causes "blades of grass" to appear on a spec-an, it should not be on the air until it's serviced.

As a licensee, WE are solely responsible, and should there be an issue, the FCC is not interested in excuses or opinions, they want it ceased. It should not happen in the first place, as hams we are supposed to raise the bar and be the higher standard.

The lesson here is whether using a CCR or an APX7500, one needs to make sure their equipment is in order before using it on the air. The facts are, the lower cost radios are more likely to have issues, maybe due to poorer QC and or lack of TX filtering, but at the end of the day, one should KNOW as ignorance is no excuse.
I agree. I want to spend as much time as possible, actually transmitting, because what good is having a license if you are not trying to get on the air as much possible? So, yeah this emission deal is something I am concerned about....last thing I want is to cause interference to others.

I for one thank you for bringing this to light and posting it. A new guy like me would have had to claim ignorance.

Already got ARRL membership on the to do list once I get my call assigned. Thanks again.
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Last edited by statebear; 11-29-2015 at 1:43 PM.. Reason: Added content
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Old 12-26-2015, 3:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
Not trying to bash Chinese radios, this is finally a FACT BASED article on the poor performance of some popular low cost HTs. Bottom line: as amateurs we are solely responsible for the proper technical parameters of our stations.
I assume that by "CCRs" you mean "cheap Chinese radios." In light of the Amateur Radio parity Act that's currently making it's way through Congress, that might not be the best term to describe these radios. CC&Rs is an abbreviation meaning "Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions." This applies to private land use restrictions usually enforced by a Home Owner's Association. The Amateur Radio Parity Act will require these organizations to make reasonable accommodation to amateurs living under these CC&Rs.

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Originally Posted by KE0GXN View Post
My thing is, yeah, the radio may be "disposable" investment wise, but my license is not....

What would be ironic, is buying a $30 dollar radio, only to get violated and end up paying a 10K fine.
It's doubtful the FCC would slap a fine on someone without warning them that they are not in compliance first.


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Originally Posted by KE0GXN View Post
I say this, however I doubt the FCC has the manpower/resources to go around finding folks in non-compliance. I am guessing you would have to be a habitual/reported violator before the men in black rappel out of the black helo and bust down your door.

With that said, since I am in limbo/break mode right now waiting on my General book to arrive via USPS, I decided to take good look at FCC Rule Part 97.307 Emissions Standards. Section (c), I found states, "All spurious emissions from a station transmitter must be reduced to the greatest extent practicable."

Being a newbie and not knowing jack yet, can these CCR's somehow be brought into compliance by an owner through repair or adjustments ?
I don't think it would be worth the effort.
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Old 12-26-2015, 4:07 PM
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I hear ya, but I just soon not even risk the warning.

I have no bias against Chicom radios, I was at one time considering starting out with one myself. However, circumstances changed and I was able to shoot for a "big three" brand instead.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion when it comes the Chicoms and in my short experience with the hobby, I am aware of the "old school" bias towards them. I am also aware of the ARRL's bias and support of the big three for various reasons.

At the end of the day, I am glad I went with what I decided to go with.

I will also add that for whatever reason, biased or otherwise, every single ham I have contacted locally within my area has recommended against purchasing a Chicom. Whether that is right or wrong, I am in no place to question with my whopping 3 weeks of experience in the hobby, but I do know those guys are 20-30+ year veterans of the service and based on what I know about them they would not steer me wrong.

In sum, one must go with what works best for them...for me its one of the big three, that's not to say anything would be wrong for it to be a Chicom for someone else.

I appreciated the posting of this thread and made the best decision for my particular situation.
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Old 12-26-2015, 4:18 PM
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Give the Chinese time and they will produce quality radios that will rival anything put out by iCom, Kenwood or Yaesu. They already have the ability to produce radios of that quality as the "Big Three" do much of their actual manufacturing in China. Even that venerable US name Motorola manufactures in China...

I'm old enough to remember a time when Japanese products were considered cheap, unreliable junk. Now look at who makes most of the consumer electronics sold in the US and a good percentage of the automobiles and trucks on the road today.
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Old 12-26-2015, 4:23 PM
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Yes sir, you may very well be right on that. Time will tell.....
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Old 12-26-2015, 8:03 PM
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Their goal from the start is to put a dent in the Japanese manufacturers.
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Old 12-26-2015, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by k6cpo View Post
Give the Chinese time and they will produce quality radios that will rival anything put out by iCom, Kenwood or Yaesu. They already have the ability to produce radios of that quality as the "Big Three" do much of their actual manufacturing in China. Even that venerable US name Motorola manufactures in China...
The Chinese build what they choose to build. Yes, some of the big 3 have their radios built in China, but they dictate the quality of radio they want produced, so the radio is built to the Japanese standards dictated by the big 3. Many parts for the big 3 US auto mfrs are also built in China, but again, the standards of quality are dictated by the US auto mfrs.

One of the major DMR players is HYTERA. Made in China, they put out a first class product that I would say is equal to Motorola. They have distributors world wide, who take care of warranty service in these countries. Their programming software is proven & stable.

But there are dozens of small radio mfrs in China who do not have US distributors to fix their defective products, their programming software is buggy, & always crashes, & they dump their junk worldwide. Just check out the TYTERA Yahoo user groups, & every day there's people having problems programming their TYT radios. I follow the Motorola, & Hytera forums, & people there do not seem to have these problems. You pay for junk, & you get junk. You pay for a quality product, & that's what you get.
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Old 12-27-2015, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
The lesson here is whether using a CCR or an APX7500, one needs to make sure their equipment is in order before using it on the air. The facts are, the lower cost radios are more likely to have issues, maybe due to poorer QC and or lack of TX filtering, but at the end of the day, one should KNOW as ignorance is no excuse.
Given that inexpensive spectrum analyzers are available, it's not outside the realm of possibilities to think that a few ham radio clubs would use their resources to purchase a spec-an, train some of their more technically savvy members on how to use it, and make the spec-an available for testing members' radios.

Of course, this brings up an somewhat of a moral dilemma. These inexpensive spec-ans, such as the Rigol used by the ARRL, are made in China. Isn't it ironic that the ARRL, and possibly your local club, would use a cheap, Chinese spec-an to show spurious emissions from cheap, Chinese radios?
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Old 12-27-2015, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by k6cpo View Post
Give the Chinese time and they will produce quality radios that will rival anything put out by iCom, Kenwood or Yaesu. They already have the ability to produce radios of that quality as the "Big Three" do much of their actual manufacturing in China. Even that venerable US name Motorola manufactures in China.
Interesting observation.

Allow me to make my own observation based on the radios in my house and vehicle:

Alinco DR-235T -- Japan
Icom IC-7000 -- Japan
Icom IC-7200 -- Japan
Icom IC-7600 -- Japan
Icom IC-9100 -- Japan
Kenwood TH-D72A -- Singapore
Kenwood TH-F6A -- Singapore
Kenwood TM-D710A -- Singapore
Kenwood TM-V71A -- Singapore
Motorola APX7000 -- Mexico
Uniden BCD396XT -- Vietnam
Yaesu FT-1DR -- Japan
Yaesu FTM-400DR -- Japan
Yaesu VX-8R -- Japan

Not a single radio on my list was made in China. Maybe some parts were made in China.

But, your point is well taken. After all, Apple builds their highly-regarded iPhones in China.
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Old 12-27-2015, 10:59 AM
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I'm old enough to remember a time when Japanese products were considered cheap, unreliable junk. Now look at who makes most of the consumer electronics sold in the US and a good percentage of the automobiles and trucks on the road today.
Yes, I remember those days, too. There was a time when most amateur radio gear sold in the U.S. was made in the U.S. But, Collins, Drake, Heathkit, Hallicrafters, Johnson, etc., are all gone from the amateur radio market. They were displaced by Japanese radios that cost less and worked better. Maybe the Chinese radio manufacturers will figure out the "work better" part. For now, though, they are concentrating on the "cost less" part and I think some hams are figuring out that it's false economy.

Since the bad old days of poor Japanese quality, as you say, the Japanese, and Korean, manufacturers have taken over the U.S. consumer electronics market. And, the Japanese have certainly taken over the camera market. But, the U.S. manufacturers still lead the U.S. automotive market. Through November, GM had a 17.6% share of the U.S. sales in 2015, Ford 14.3%, Toyota 14.1%, Chrysler 12.6%, Honda 9.1%, Nissan 8.5%, all the other manufacturers are at less than 5%. Data is from the Wall Street Journal.
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Old 12-27-2015, 2:02 PM
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Here's my list:

Wouxun KG-UVA1 (2)—China (Obviously...)
Baofeng UV-5RE—China
Yaesu FT-270—China
Yaesu Ft-60—China
Yaesu FT-1900—China
Yaesu FT-7900 (2)—Japan
Yaesu FT-1D—Japan
Alinco DJ-280—Japan
Alinco DR-06—Japan
iCom IC-751A—Japan
Audiovox GMRS1262 (2)—China
Radio Shack Pro-91—Philippines
Radio Shack Pro-135—China

So it really depends on the model of radio as to where it's made.

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Originally Posted by W9BU View Post
Since the bad old days of poor Japanese quality, as you say, the Japanese, and Korean, manufacturers have taken over the U.S. consumer electronics market. And, the Japanese have certainly taken over the camera market. But, the U.S. manufacturers still lead the U.S. automotive market. Through November, GM had a 17.6% share of the U.S. sales in 2015, Ford 14.3%, Toyota 14.1%, Chrysler 12.6%, Honda 9.1%, Nissan 8.5%, all the other manufacturers are at less than 5%. Data is from the Wall Street Journal.
There was a period of time when that wasn't the case. The US manufacturers had some pretty bad cars in the 1970s and 80s, but they saw the handwriting on the wall and turned around their quality.
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Old 12-28-2015, 6:02 AM
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Give the Chinese time and they will produce quality radios that will rival anything put out by iCom, Kenwood or Yaesu. They already have the ability to produce radios of that quality as the "Big Three" do much of their actual manufacturing in China. Even that venerable US name Motorola manufactures in China...
Korea went through the same growing pains. When I used to repair consumer electronics, in the 80s, I noticed that the big Korean brands had the same amount of quality that the Japanese brands had 5 to 20 years earlier. (It varied by product and brand.)

When I lived in Korea, in the 90s, and would see the clothing, tools, and electronic items of various qualities. It became apparent that the companies could supply high quality products, but seemed to only do so if their ethics drove them to, or contractual obligations required the quality.

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Old 12-28-2015, 6:07 PM
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I ended up with the two Wouxuns because I needed a Part 90 compliant narrowband capable radio for operations at a local railroad museum where I volunteer. I didn't want to spend $200-300 or more for a Motorola or other manufacturer's radio that might get used three or four times a year. Both Wouxuns came from a US company and have been very reliable.

The Baofeng I received as a raffle prize at a ham radio club Christmas party. I kept it only because it's also Part 90 and narrowband compliant. I haven't tested any of them for spurious emissions, but I did compare them for narrowband compliance. Interestingly, the Wouxun I tested was slightly wide, while the Baofeng was right on the money for bandwidth.
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Old 12-28-2015, 6:28 PM
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I ended up with the two Wouxuns because I needed a Part 90 compliant narrowband capable radio for operations at a local railroad museum where I volunteer. I didn't want to spend $200-300 or more for a Motorola or other manufacturer's radio that might get used three or four times a year. Both Wouxuns came from a US company and have been very reliable.

The Baofeng I received as a raffle prize at a ham radio club Christmas party. I kept it only because it's also Part 90 and narrowband compliant. I haven't tested any of them for spurious emissions, but I did compare them for narrowband compliance. Interestingly, the Wouxun I tested was slightly wide, while the Baofeng was right on the money for bandwidth.
The thing with wouxun and Baofeng on narrow band is that only their transmitters are set for narrow band with. Their receivers will still look for a wider signal. If you have a narrow signal adjacent to your operating frequency, you will hear them clearly.

Puxing and Anytone properly adjust both transmit and receive. Adjacent frequencies on my Puxing units do, however, on occasion, get farg gargled by adjacent frequencies....but I attribute that to a Baofeng doing its thing on that adjacent frequency

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Old 12-28-2015, 6:43 PM
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Give the Chinese time and they will produce quality radios that will rival anything put out by iCom, Kenwood or Yaesu. They already have the ability to produce radios of that quality as the "Big Three" do much of their actual manufacturing in China. Even that venerable US name Motorola manufactures in China...

I'm old enough to remember a time when Japanese products were considered cheap, unreliable junk. Now look at who makes most of the consumer electronics sold in the US and a good percentage of the automobiles and trucks on the road today.
The Chinese already do. Hytera for one.
They started out though with the HYT nameplate. Cheap crap. Then they discovered p25 and dmr. They changed their brand to hytera and quadrupled their prices. Fortunately their quality improved for their commercial stuff.

Evidently, TYT wants to jump on the bandwagon. Changing their brand to Tytera might also lead to a quadrupling of prices. Whether or not quality improves...time will tell.

They can do it. They just need to want to or have financial motivation.

There are folks out there who swear to God that Baofeng is superior to every radio ever made. There is a cult of Baofeng worshipers out there. They will want to kill you...and cuss you out for even thinking different.

Scary.

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Old 12-28-2015, 9:09 PM
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Folks, several of us, including me, have wandered off the topic of this thread. Let's stay focused on the QST article and its assertion that many of the CCRs have transmitters which generate spurious emissions that are in violation of Part 97 rules.
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