Wanting to get on the air (HF specifically)!

[AlphaMikeLima]

Hello everyone,

Alright, so amateur radio has always been a hobby I've been trying to get into for the last 4 years but due to time constraints with working full time and going to school part time its been something of a very slow process to learn. Through these last 4 years in free time between semesters I've acquired my general license and the equipment necessary to actually get on the air (IC-718, MFJ-941E tuner, GRV5 attenna, RG-58, yeah yeah it ain't the greatest equipment but it fits the budget for the time being...). Anyway, I've got a few questions over very basic things:

First: Grounding

Alright so I have an 8 foot ground rod (haven't driven it in the ground yet, though a simple task for most its kinda difficult to do in the dense Oklahoma clay soil I have). I know this is basic but very necessary, but my main concern is the length of the grounding cable from the ground rod to the transmitter. Is it going to a huge deal if the cable is about 15-17 feet long? Can I use grounding strap instead of heavy gage wire? Also do I need to make a bus to connect my tuner and transmitter that goes to ground?

Second: Antenna Tuner

So I purchased my tuner after reading some reviews on eham and it seemed to be decent. I guess I'm still a little confused on how exactly to use this thing. I've tried transmitting at low power before for a second or two at (10-15 watts) and the SWR meter completely pegged out to both sides. I guess my question is how do I reduce the SWR with it. Do I also need a dummy load to tune it correctly? Is there anyway to get around using a dummy load? I know this is a stupid question and I'm probably an idiot for even attempting to transmit without having it grounded or using a dummy load, but hey I'm still learning this stuff.

Third: Coax

Alright I know RG-58 is terrible terrible coax. I've ready plenty of rants from some of the experts here and I realize I'm going to have to spend some money to get some better coax like RG-8X or better. But will it do the job for the time being? Can I make some contacts with it?

I know these are very rudimentary questions but I'm learning this stuff on my own and the amount of time I get to spend with my radio is somewhat spotty (every couple months). I appreciate any feedback.

Thank you for your time,

KE5OLJ

 

[rfradioconsult]

Let's take a quick inventory of where you stand. First do you have an MFJ-814E; if this is indeed what you have, this is NOT an antenna tuner! It is designed to work in conjunction with a tuner to enable it to tune outside of its normal range. Second if your G5RV momemade or purchased already built, the design should have two wire elements with about 34 feet of twin lead connected that then connects to a run of coax. If this is what you have and your coax is rg-58 that's fine coax loss at HF is very minimal. Finally a G5RV design does not require a RF ground, a single 8 ft. ground rod will not protect your station from a direct lightning strike and the addition of a lightning arrestor won't stop a direct strike either. So you are left with a nice radio and a desire to get on HF so you are off to a good start, do some research and you will do fine, log onto QRZ.com and read the forums especially the antenna and coax one.

Good luck and welcome!

 

[AlphaMikeLima]

sorry I meant a MFJ-941E, typo

 

[gcgrotz]

What are you waiting for? The G5RV should work great and may or not need a tuner on at least some frequencies. Read the tuner manual, get it from MFJ's website if you don't have it. Generally, you will have to use more inductance on lower (3.5 and 7.0 MHz) bands and less on higher ones. Yes, use a dummy load. I've done it that way for a long time; you can adjust your tuner into a dummy load at the freq you want and then it should only take minor adjustments on the antenna. This keeps your transmitter happy and causes the least interference. And make a chart of your settings on different bands.

I've used some really crappy antennas. My first 80 meter dipole was hung on a clothesline and fence about 6 ft off the ground. Made some good contacts on it. I got my first WAS award using 50 feet of wire hung from a tree to a second floor apartment window and no ground that I can remember. Some of the contacts were very difficult but eventually they came through.

Right now you are doing better than I am, I just moved 5 weeks ago and, of course, ham radio is at the bottom of the domestic happiness chart. Most of it is out of the boxes but not hooked up and no antenna yet.

Good luck and good DX!

 

[Daniel_Boone]

I think that the proper answer is that you need a Elmer to help you along and show you the ropes.

The G5RV antenna - is center tuned for 40 meters.
This is great if all you want to do is 40 meters.
The problem is - it only works marginally on 30 meters and 20 meters.

In my opinion - 20 meters offers more bang per the buck then any other band.

So the next step is determining what type of station ground you need to fulfill your stations requirements.

The problem I see and the way I see it - too many people memorizes the answers to pass the test and then knows absolutely nothing about broadcasting and hence has to come on the internet and ask these questions - because they don't understand what they need to do to get their station up and on the air properly.

The bottom line is - you probably need one good antenna per every frequency you desire to transmit on and each frequency is not always going to be available. MUF - Look it up.

So might I suggest that you look into buying one or two beam type antenna's, a tower at least 40' tall and a whole bunch of coax and ladder line.

Once the tower is up, you can build your own long wire antenna's, double bazooka's etc - because now you will have something to hang them off of.

The down side is - the G5RV does not work well around metal objects.
For that - you would need to mount a 2 x 4 or 4 x 4 to the side of the tower to isolate the tower from the antenna.

Interior wise - you will need several grounds per each beam antenna and per each leg of the tower and also bond those grounds to the ground stake that comes in with your power feed from the utility company's drop.

You will need switches to switch from antenna to antenna and bonded grounds for everything in the station. This requires a large investment in copper strap and clamps....
You surely can't afford to buy a cadwelder set up....

To really do it right, you need to run a copper wire - at least 2 gauge 12 - 16 inches below ground - in a circle the whole way around your house - if that is what you are using for a station and you need to bond that cable to the utility ground stake and to the tower ground and you need to pound one 8' ground stake in the ground on each corner of the house - in a radial pattern away from the ground loop.

So as rfradioconsult said - one ground stake isn't going to do you much good.

Might I suggest that you build a long wire antenna and string it around the house on poles.
I don't know how large your yard is - but if you could get something 500 - 600 feet long - it would probably work the whole way down to 160 meters...

 

[GSPD]

I think that the proper answer is that you need a Elmer to help you along and show you the ropes.

The G5RV antenna - is center tuned for 40 meters.
This is great if all you want to do is 40 meters.
The problem is - it only works marginally on 30 meters and 20 meters.

In my opinion - 20 meters offers more bang per the buck then any other band.

So the next step is determining what type of station ground you need to fulfill your stations requirements.

The problem I see and the way I see it - too many people memorizes the answers to pass the test and then knows absolutely nothing about broadcasting and hence has to come on the internet and ask these questions - because they don't understand what they need to do to get their station up and on the air properly.

The bottom line is - you probably need one good antenna per every frequency you desire to transmit on and each frequency is not always going to be available. MUF - Look it up.

So might I suggest that you look into buying one or two beam type antenna's, a tower at least 40' tall and a whole bunch of coax and ladder line.

Once the tower is up, you can build your own long wire antenna's, double bazooka's etc - because now you will have something to hang them off of.

The down side is - the G5RV does not work well around metal objects.
For that - you would need to mount a 2 x 4 or 4 x 4 to the side of the tower to isolate the tower from the antenna.

Interior wise - you will need several grounds per each beam antenna and per each leg of the tower and also bond those grounds to the ground stake that comes in with your power feed from the utility company's drop.

You will need switches to switch from antenna to antenna and bonded grounds for everything in the station. This requires a large investment in copper strap and clamps....
You surely can't afford to buy a cadwelder set up....

To really do it right, you need to run a copper wire - at least 2 gauge 12 - 16 inches below ground - in a circle the whole way around your house - if that is what you are using for a station and you need to bond that cable to the utility ground stake and to the tower ground and you need to pound one 8' ground stake in the ground on each corner of the house - in a radial pattern away from the ground loop.

So as rfradioconsult said - one ground stake isn't going to do you much good.

Might I suggest that you build a long wire antenna and string it around the house on poles.
I don't know how large your yard is - but if you could get something 500 - 600 feet long - it would probably work the whole way down to 160 meters...

You're kidding, right?

 

[N8IAA]

Hello everyone,

Alright, so amateur radio has always been a hobby I've been trying to get into for the last 4 years but due to time constraints with working full time and going to school part time its been something of a very slow process to learn. Through these last 4 years in free time between semesters I've acquired my general license and the equipment necessary to actually get on the air (IC-718, MFJ-941E tuner, GRV5 attenna, RG-58, yeah yeah it ain't the greatest equipment but it fits the budget for the time being...). Anyway, I've got a few questions over very basic things:
The 718 is a good basic rig. The tuner is a good one. I would have used a wire antenna cut for 40 meters. It is tunable for 20m, 15m, a gain antenna on 10m. Never operated on 12m. The GRV5 makes for a narrower operating band width on all the frequencies it is cut for. A tuner will only make it marginally better.

First: Grounding

Alright so I have an 8 foot ground rod (haven't driven it in the ground yet, though a simple task for most its kinda difficult to do in the dense Oklahoma clay soil I have). I know this is basic but very necessary, but my main concern is the length of the grounding cable from the ground rod to the transmitter. Is it going to a huge deal if the cable is about 15-17 feet long? Can I use grounding strap instead of heavy gage wire? Also do I need to make a bus to connect my tuner and transmitter that goes to ground?
No. Length is not an issue. Heavy gauge solid wire is usually better than a grounding strap. The problem with most grounding straps, is that they are not copper. I've used a tuner without grounding it. Grounding the tuner and the transceiver eliminates some noise so that you hear the signal better.

Second: Antenna Tuner

So I purchased my tuner after reading some reviews on eham and it seemed to be decent. I guess I'm still a little confused on how exactly to use this thing. I've tried transmitting at low power before for a second or two at (10-15 watts) and the SWR meter completely pegged out to both sides. I guess my question is how do I reduce the SWR with it. Do I also need a dummy load to tune it correctly? Is there anyway to get around using a dummy load? I know this is a stupid question and I'm probably an idiot for even attempting to transmit without having it grounded or using a dummy load, but hey I'm still learning this stuff.
Have you read the manual that came with the tuner? I would take the suggestion of getting some help from a local ham who has been around for a while. Haven't used a 941 for quite a while.

Third: Coax

Alright I know RG-58 is terrible terrible coax. I've ready plenty of rants from some of the experts here and I realize I'm going to have to spend some money to get some better coax like RG-8X or better. But will it do the job for the time being? Can I make some contacts with it?
Depends on how well shielded the and how long the coax is. If it is poorly shielded, the cable will act as the antenna, and not let the signal to reach the antenna. Anything over 100' is not good even on HF.

I know these are very rudimentary questions but I'm learning this stuff on my own and the amount of time I get to spend with my radio is somewhat spotty (every couple months). I appreciate any feedback.

Thank you for your time,

KE5OLJ

I haven't operated on the low bands for a while. Looking to get back to it mobile. But, for about a year, that's all I could operate on
HTH,
Larry

 

[LtDoc]

GSPD,
Unfortunately, he's probably not kidding. It's a typical post from 'Daniel_Boone', and quite mistaken about much of what what was said. For example, the G5RV was designed as a 20 meter antenna to start with and works quite well there. It's only incidental that it 'works' on other bands, and having that tuner is almost a requirement for using a G5RV.

KE5OLJ,
RG-58 coax always get's a 'bad-rap' but is certainly not as terrible as it's made out to be. That assumes a good 'grade' of RG-58, and the run isn't too long on HF. It will 'do' for most feed lines at HF. Until the losses get fairly high, greater than 3 dB, you'll never hear any difference between RG-58 and LMR-400 coax. Oooo, that's blasphemy in certain circles, but still true.
That ground rod is next to useless for safety grounding used all by it's self. That G5RV doesn't require any grounding, other than for safety. Neither do most commercially sold antennas that are not a variation on a random or long wire. If you are really interested in a safety ground, start thinking about burying some radials, the more the better and the longer the better. The only requirement for the conductor going to a ground system is that it shouldn't be an odd multiple of a 1/4 wave length at the frequency(s) of use, and it should be capable of carrying some current. 'Straps' work, so do fairly large wire in various forms. A number 6 is the minimum size for a safety ground, so ought'a work just dandy for an RF ground too.
If you don't have a manual for that tuner and radio GET them. Then read them. They may not be kindergarten simple, but they are not all that impossible either. When you find the 'right' spot for whatever frequencies you use, write those settings down. Or mark the face of the tuning scales for those knobs, that works too.
Another piece of good advice is to do a lot of listening to see how things are 'done' before punching that PTT button. Saves a lot of 'goofs', you know? But don't let that listening end there, punch the button too! Everybody has to start somewhere, and with that radio and antenna you've got a good start.
- 'Doc


About grounding. The NEC, National Electrical Code, is a very good place to find out about it, and how to go about it.

 

[prcguy]

Yup, G5RV designed for 20m but it works great on 80 through 10m if you can run its 30 something foot balanced feedline right to a tuner and not use any coax.

I've made and used countless G5RVs and had great success but if the OP is going with a doublet type antenna for all bands I would highly recommend building a ZS6BKW, which is a modern computer designed upgrade of the G5RV.

The ZS5BKW is a 94ft center fed dipole with about 40ft of balanced line as a tuned feeder and it has a good match to 50 ohms on 40, 20, 17, 12, 10 and 6m without a tuner. If you connect it right to a tuner with no coax it will also work well on 80, 30 and 15m but if you have a long run of coax there will be high feedline loss on the last mentioned bands.
prcguy

 

[GSPD]

The good thing about amateur radio is the ability to experiment. Online information is there and I highly recommend some research before you jump in. A lot depends on your terrain and the foot print of your property as to what type of antenna you can support.

My station is very modest and works very well for what I do. It gets limited use, mostly during the winter months while indoors. I have a Kenwood TS-570S/G, G5RV as an inverted V (hung in the trees/44 foot high) with a Tokyo antenna tuner which allows the G5RV to be used on 160-10 meters! Six meter operation is accomplished using a Par Electronics Omni Angle that is roof mounted. All signal reports are always good, whether it's 25 watts on AM or my whopping 100 watts SSB! I may not have the biggest signal out there, but I'm told I've had the best audio....go fiqure.

Again, do some research, browse eham forums and talk with others! You certainly can put together a fine sounding station without huge antennas, amps, towers or breaking the bank!

Good luck!

 

[rfradioconsult]

Some posts offer sound and well proven advice; other posts tend to be more opinion and "editorial" in nature. For someone trying to learn and search for knowledge separating the two can be difficult.

 

[k9rzz]

Plug the stupid coax into the radio, call CQ, and work someone already. I worked 17 states on 40 meters as a novice before I even knew what SWR meant.

 

[Daniel_Boone]

[I think that the problem some of the geniuses has on this forum is that they cannot read and that they generically call one group of antenna's by its improper name.

If you look at the web site - it offers several antennas of all different dimensions.

Most people starts out with the model they call the G5RV which is centered around 40 meters.
G5RV ANTENNAS

Quote says - it is physically short on 80 meters - this comes straight from the manufacturer.

The G5RV is slightly short on 80 meters where the 450 ohm line serves as a form of matching stub and both a stub and/or impedance matching transformer on the other bands.

There is also a G5RV M , G5RV JR, G5RV Multi Bander, The All Bander Dipole, The Shorty Bander Dipole

 

[rfradioconsult]

Actually the original G5RV design was for 20 Meter operation not 40.