Emergency radio transmissions

[jjcsx]

I was wondering about one part in particular of the FCC Rules regarding Ham radio. Essentially, my question is: If you are a LICENSED Ham operator, are you authorized to transmit emergency messages out of ham bands in an emergency situation?
My hypothetical situation is: I'm out driving around when I come up to a railroad crossing. I can see a car stuck on the tracks and realize that a train is approaching. Normally, I would just use my cell phone to call in the situation to the dispatcher, but in this case there is not enough time for me to contact the dispatcher, who then in-turn has to contact the train, before the vehicle would get struck. Would it be legal for me to transmit directly to the train in this instance, notifying them of the situation in front of them, thus saving valuable reaction time in applying the emergency brakes?
Obviously it would be illegal to transmit on any frequency you're not licensed in at any time other than an emergency, but would it be legal in this particular situation? Any info regarding this would be greatly appreciated!!

 

[AK9R]

You have to read Part 97 very carefully and completely. Specifically, 97.403 states:

No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station of any means of radio communication at its disposal to provide essential communication needs in connection with the immediate safety of human life and immediate protection of property when normal communication systems are not available.

I italicized the last phrase because that's the part most people miss. If you can reach the authorities via telephone, then you are not authorized to transmit outside of the amateur radio bands.

By the way, most railroad crossings are marked with a sign installed by the railroad that gives the number to call if there's a problem with the crossing. That sign may also carry the milepost of the crossing and the FRA crossing number. This sign may be installed on the crossing gate support, crossing light pole, or cross-bucks post.

 

[hhrj]

First thing you need to do is get the people out of the car and to safety!!!
Trying to stop the train by cell phone or radio is just a waste of time, time you need to do the above.
Don't hesitate to jump into action, you can talk about it later. The car can be replaced.

Ron

 

[elk2370bruce]

I was wondering about one part in particular of the FCC Rules regarding Ham radio. Essentially, my question is: If you are a LICENSED Ham operator, are you authorized to transmit emergency messages out of ham bands in an emergency situation?
My hypothetical situation is: I'm out driving around when I come up to a railroad crossing. I can see a car stuck on the tracks and realize that a train is approaching. Normally, I would just use my cell phone to call in the situation to the dispatcher, but in this case there is not enough time for me to contact the dispatcher, who then in-turn has to contact the train, before the vehicle would get struck. Would it be legal for me to transmit directly to the train in this instance, notifying them of the situation in front of them, thus saving valuable reaction time in applying the emergency brakes?
Obviously it would be illegal to transmit on any frequency you're not licensed in at any time other than an emergency, but would it be legal in this particular situation? Any info regarding this would be greatly appreciated!!

In such a scenario, how would you know which frequencies and PL's that this specific train is monitoring? Would you have that frequency pre-programmed in your rig? WHY? Would your rig even accept the out-of-band frequency and PL entry? How long would it take for you to find that frequency and plug it into your rig? Wouldn't it just be faster andf simpler to use your cell phone to call the RR's 800 number? I agree that the phrase that mentions when no other means of communications is available is the direct answer to your question. The citation in Part 97 is quite clear as answered above.

 

[n5ims]

Be aware that this exemption may allow you to not get a fine from the FCC for transmitting outside your license authority, but you may still have legal issues unrelated to the FCC. For example, if you transmit on your local PD frequency you may still face charges from them for using their frequency without authorization (this may include felony jail time).

This affidavit (http://media.nbclocalmedia.com/documents/MarcelCarterCriminalComplaint.pdf) is about someone charged with transmitting on a railroad frequency that now faces "up to 20 years in jail and a 200,000 fine" for doing so. Now he was just messing around and not attempting to save lives, but who knows how the FBI will see things.

The rule should be transmit if you must, but be willing to accept the consequences of doing so. If the situation isn’t important enough to face jail time you may want to find another way to handle it. If it’s truly life-or-death than jail time shouldn’t matter.

 

[kb2vxa]

The key words here are IMMEDIATE and NORMAL COMMUNICATION which rarely dovetail so for the most part out of band transmitting rarely if ever happens. I can't see a situation where a licensed ham with a radio can't raise another ham on some frequency with a MAYDAY that's bound to raise attention somewhere.

As an aside, once upon an episode of COPS I saw a bystander use the patrol car's radio to call HQ when the officer was unable to call for help and I have doubts he got in any trouble. That's another extremely rare instance but worth mentioning.

BTW:
"You can't argue with a sick mind" -- Joe Walsh WB6ACU
I see you know crazy "life's been good to me so far" Joe too.

 

[zz0468]

Can we just assign a number to this question, and whenever someone wants to come along and ask it for the 15th time that month, they can just ask, say, "question #15".

And we can give "answer #45". Or whatever.

But the detailed answer is no, no, no, no, and NO. You CAN'T come up on any frequency like that, even in an emergency. Aside from the common sense aspect of some strange voice coming on the radio and demanding that a train just stop (that alone could cause a train wreck), people need to realize that Part 97 of the FCC rules deal ONLY with Part 97.

A blanket authorization to transmit outside of Part 97 would NOT fall under the purview of Part 97, by definition. And if authority is granted to operate unlicensed out-of-band to anyone in an emergency, why would it be limited only to amateurs? Can't anyone grab a microphone and yell for help? 97.403 is a poorly written paragraph meaning a Technician class amateur can come up on the Extra sub-bands to call for help.

Having things like railroad frequencies plugged into a radio is just asking for trouble, and even in an emergency, it's likely the subject will come up. It's also a violation of FCC Part 90 rules. And with near ubiquitous cellphone coverage, railroad 800 numbers posted at every crossing gate, and universal 911 service, the argument that coming up on someone's public safety or a railroad's channel was the only means of communication isn't going to wash.

If you're hell bent on stopping a train, your best bet would be to run toward the train waving your arms. Stay off the tracks, though. It's gonna take him a while to slow down.

 

[zz0468]

As an aside, once upon an episode of COPS I saw a bystander use the patrol car's radio to call HQ when the officer was unable to call for help and I have doubts he got in any trouble. That's another extremely rare instance but worth mentioning.

And that had nothing to do with Part 97, and someone's interpretation, thinking it allows them to program police frequencies in their radio. The citizens involved in that sort of scenario are generally hailed as heroes, not some radio-hacker-freak-show interrupting safety of live communications.

 

[jjcsx]

I appreciate the feedback. To answer a previous question, I would have all of the frequencies pre-programmed already, wouldn't have to look for them; believe me, establishing direct contact with the train would not be an issue. Why? I have a railroad radio. How? I work for the railroad. I am also very familiar with the information posted on the crossings; I personally wouldn't waste time calling the 800 number on the crossing, as this number is for railroad police, who then have to contact the correct dispatcher, who then has to contact the train. If I called anyone via telephone, I would call the dispatcher directly, unless I happened to know the engineer personally. I obviously would not hesitate to call the train via radio in the area where I work, my question mainly applied to a hypothetical situation in an area where I do not work, or if the incident occurred on a railroad I do not work for. Hope this clears it up a bit.

 

[ecps92]

I'm not a lawyer, but I did sleep once at a Holiday Inn express and have watched Perry Mason from time-time. Having the Frequencies Pre-Programmed to transmit in a band you would not be authorized in, seems to be "Premeditated" and is a sure way to get caught with an accidental open MIC sometime.

I appreciate the feedback. To answer a previous question, I would have all of the frequencies pre-programmed already, wouldn't have to look for them; believe me, establishing direct contact with the train would not be an issue. Why? I have a railroad radio. How? I work for the railroad. I am also very familiar with the information posted on the crossings; I personally wouldn't waste time calling the 800 number on the crossing, as this number is for railroad police, who then have to contact the correct dispatcher, who then has to contact the train. If I called anyone via telephone, I would call the dispatcher directly, unless I happened to know the engineer personally. I obviously would not hesitate to call the train via radio in the area where I work, my question mainly applied to a hypothetical situation in an area where I do not work, or if the incident occurred on a railroad I do not work for. Hope this clears it up a bit.

 

[DaveNF2G]

You might as well do it legitimately, and focus your immediate efforts on getting people out of the car. No matter how fast you contact the train, if it is within sight of the car, it will hit the car.

 

[hhrj]

Working for the railroad and having a radio certainly changes the situation a little.
Using a cop's radio to summon help for him is something that I'd do.

However, There was a recent incident (like in the last month) where a local cop was placing a guy under arrest. Seems that the deal went bad and the perp drove off with the cop car. He made several calls to dispatch including one to ask "Where's the cigarette lighter". I'm sure in this case that the perp will have additon charges filed against him in court for the use of the radio,

Now since you've changed the situation, why not fill in other blanks like: how fast is the train going and how far away is it. Is it loaded and pulling hard or just a few cars. There are a lot of variables involved here.

 

[hhrj]

You might as well do it legitimately, and focus your immediate efforts on getting people out of the car. No matter how fast you contact the train, if it is within sight of the car, it will hit the car.

Exactly my point!!!

 

[zz0468]

I appreciate the feedback. To answer a previous question, I would have all of the frequencies pre-programmed already, wouldn't have to look for them

In other words, you're one of those guys who acts as if the rules don't apply to them personally, and you're going to do what you're going to do, regardless of any one else's opinion, and regardless of any specific laws that say you can't.

So, why the hell did you bother asking in the first place? :roll:

If you're an authorized user, then it has nothing to do with part 97. If you're an unauthorized user, it has nothing to do with Part 97.

 

[poppafred]

With the increasing use and popularity of digital audio in public service radios, I believe it is safe to say that your ham radio, even modified to transmit out of band, might as well be a brick.

 

[KB0VWG]

I had the same question in mind

I was wondering about one part in particular of the FCC Rules regarding Ham radio. Essentially, my question is: If you are a LICENSED Ham operator, are you authorized to transmit emergency messages out of ham bands in an emergency situation?
My hypothetical situation is: I'm out driving around when I come up to a railroad crossing. I can see a car stuck on the tracks and realize that a train is approaching. Normally, I would just use my cell phone to call in the situation to the dispatcher, but in this case there is not enough time for me to contact the dispatcher, who then in-turn has to contact the train, before the vehicle would get struck. Would it be legal for me to transmit directly to the train in this instance, notifying them of the situation in front of them, thus saving valuable reaction time in applying the emergency brakes?
Obviously it would be illegal to transmit on any frequency you're not licensed in at any time other than an emergency, but would it be legal in this particular situation? Any info regarding this would be greatly appreciated!!

I have been wanting to ask this question as well but I see the comments go in different directions and they are not focusing on your question. Its not illegal to have the freqs of the RR in your radio or any other public safety freq. its illegal to transmit.

Forget the cell phone because you are out in the middle of no where and there is no cellphone coverage and for some reason you are unable to to get the person out of the vehicle.
If this was me in this situation I would not hesitate on getting on the radio TO SAVE A LIFE.

kb0vwg
wqoi992

 

[DaveNF2G]

With the increasing use and popularity of digital audio in public service radios, I believe it is safe to say that your ham radio, even modified to transmit out of band, might as well be a brick.

This is probably the real reason why there are no P25 ham radios.

 

[JoeyC]

In a REAL life or death emergency you would focus your efforts of rescuing people to get them out of harms way, NOT fiddling with programming up a radio to transmit out of band (if you even knew the correct frequency). After you get people out of danger, you use the telephone. A car sitting on the railroad tracks without occupants is not a life or death emergency. Someone trapped in the vehicle on the tracks? Take extraordinary measures and use your vehicle to push it off. No vehicle and no phone? Then you may have a valid reason to do such, but who comes prepared to do that? I always find it very suspicious that anyone would take the time to program their radios to transmit on frequencies they are not authorized to transmit on, (police, fire, rail or whatever) just in case.

 

[zz0468]

...Its not illegal to have the freqs of the RR in your radio or any other public safety freq. its illegal to transmit.

90.427(b) Except for frequencies used in accordancewith § 90.417, no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the transmitter is not authorized.

 

[instrumentphilip]

I have always been curious of the procedures and protocols for doing what the OP asks... It is a shame that no one has any answers besides: " No, you can't " , or " Don't do it ". I am a Licensed HAM and have seen and thought of many cases where it would be to save lives. I always wondered if it were to ever happen and I was either confident that I was not going to get slapped with a fine or jail time OR It was such an emergency that I wouldn't care.

Such as announcing you are a HAM radio operator and maybe call sign or something like that. From an emergency management / communications stand point. Do not get me wrong here people, I am not looking to go on a "Life saving" radio crusade here or anything / not using this blanket to go out TX-ing to everyone.