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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-31-2017, 4:41 PM
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Key wording in all of this is the FCC is asking if you have ever been "convicted" or "plead guilty" to a felony.

They are not asking if you have ever been charged, suspected or arrested for a felony..... therefore what they are asking for is a matter of public record already in most States, if not all.

I don't see the big deal. Like others have stated, employers and other private entities have been asking that question on applications for years.
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Old 07-31-2017, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by KE0GXN View Post
Key wording in all of this is the FCC is asking if you have ever been "convicted" or "plead guilty" to a felony.

They are not asking if you have ever been charged, suspected or arrested for a felony..... therefore what they are asking for is a matter of public record already in most States, if not all.

I don't see the big deal. Like others have stated, employers and other private entities have been asking that question on applications for years.
You're making waaaaay too much sense for this forum. Cut it out!!
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 08-01-2017, 5:53 AM
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This is an interesting thread to read, but it seems to have gone sideways right from the start. Keep in mind the FCC 605 covers most civilian radio operators including merchant marines (felonies are a problem), pilots (Airline Transport Pilot license holders cannot have felonies), commercial radio repair persons (who gain access to secured spaces), etc. I think the amateur community just got caught because we all use the same form.
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Old 08-01-2017, 7:01 PM
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I think the reason for the SSN was to get an FRN, the reason for an FRN to see if you owed any money to the government for child support.
Why would the government be on child support?
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Old 08-01-2017, 7:11 PM
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For non-payment of child support, they may take your income tax refund, your driver's license, etc. Yeah, the government is involved.
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Old 08-01-2017, 7:14 PM
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Why would the government be on child support?
The FRN is a result of the DCIA (debt collection improvement act 1996

https://www.fms.treas.gov/news/factsheets/dcia.html

unpaid child support is funded in part from federal dollars and is one of the many types of federal dept one might owe. You owe the ex , child support and you don't pay, the state steps in, the state asks the federal government for funds.

https://www.acf.hhs.gov/css/resource...rt-obligations
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Old 08-01-2017, 9:08 PM
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Why would the government be on child support?

Or if you defaulted on any Federal student loans
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Old 08-02-2017, 2:35 PM
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Originally Posted by N7DKL View Post
This is an interesting thread to read, but it seems to have gone sideways right from the start. Keep in mind the FCC 605 covers most civilian radio operators including merchant marines (felonies are a problem), pilots (Airline Transport Pilot license holders cannot have felonies), commercial radio repair persons (who gain access to secured spaces), etc. I think the amateur community just got caught because we all use the same form.
EVERYONE that applies for any kind of license from the FCC is going to be subject to the new requirement, even if they've been licensed for decades. Here is a statement from the National Conference of Volunteer Examiner Coordinators (NCVEC,) the organization that oversees all the VECs in the US.

NCVEC - News Archive
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Old 08-02-2017, 5:05 PM
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So, assuming a new applicant says, no, and no felony, and submits form, is there a background check done anyway or is all of this just voluntary information and then it gets followed up on?

What if applicant says no, and does have felony, and submits? Does the system still back ground new applicants or renewals?

I do volunteer work for low income IT related projects, and use my amateur radio hobby as a way to get some fellow, with felonies, into something productive and skills based...
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Old 08-02-2017, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by PsyOp View Post
So, assuming a new applicant says, no, and no felony, and submits form, is there a background check done anyway or is all of this just voluntary information and then it gets followed up on?

What if applicant says no, and does have felony, and submits? Does the system still back ground new applicants or renewals?

I do volunteer work for low income IT related projects, and use my amateur radio hobby as a way to get some fellow, with felonies, into something productive and skills based...
If it's typical admin-type government, it'll probably be like gun sales forms. Nothing will likely happen unless someone brings it to their attention, Just speculating.
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Old 08-03-2017, 8:53 AM
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Originally Posted by KK4JUG View Post
If it's typical admin-type government, it'll probably be like gun sales forms. Nothing will likely happen unless someone brings it to their attention.
If you are referring to the BATFE Form 4473, that form is required to be filled out by every licensed firearm dealer for every firearm sale. The dealer is then required to contact the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) before transferring the firearm to the purchaser. The NICS will then advise if they see anything in their records that would prohibit the sale.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2017, 9:00 AM
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Originally Posted by W9BU View Post
If you are referring to the BATFE Form 4473, that form is required to be filled out by every licensed firearm dealer for every firearm sale. The dealer is then required to contact the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) before transferring the firearm to the purchaser. The NICS will then advise if they see anything in their records that would prohibit the sale.
You're right. I don't know what I was thinking. Maybe it was the mental health portions. Medical privacy makes that hard to check.
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Old 08-03-2017, 9:33 AM
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HIPAA has little to no impact on the Mental Health Checks for NICS or State Permitting.

https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-profes...ICS/index.html

But we move off topic.
And a Google Search returns years of prior denials and revocations based on being a Convicted Felon.

Simple Rule, don't mess up, otherwise you pay for it, for a long long time

Many of those Mental Health records are Court commitments
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You're right. I don't know what I was thinking. Maybe it was the mental health portions. Medical privacy makes that hard to check.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2017, 12:51 PM
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VEs are not going to be required to verify anything on the Form 605 beyond the identity of the person taking the test, as they are already doing. Nothing will change for us.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2017, 1:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecps92 View Post
HIPAA has little to no impact on the Mental Health Checks for NICS or State Permitting.

https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-profes...ICS/index.html

But we move off topic.
And a Google Search returns years of prior denials and revocations based on being a Convicted Felon.

Simple Rule, don't mess up, otherwise you pay for it, for a long long time

Many of those Mental Health records are Court commitments
so much for paying your debt to society
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2017, 2:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronic View Post
so much for paying your debt to society
Who said the debt to society is paid? Where is it written that after you serve jail time all is forgiven?

Being caught, convicted, and serving time for a crime can never undo the crime or the fact that the criminal committed the act. At best it is just societies way of saying you did not care about this society enough to follow its rules, and so you got your knuckles wrapped as punishment. Maybe, just maybe, you learned to not do that again, however having shown a willingness to ignore societies guidelines once society might, justifiably, feel it needs to pay closer attention to you in the future.

And the recidivism rate would suggest that once a person commits a felony they are VERY likely to do so again. https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rprts05p0510.pdf

A felony conviction permanently disqualifies one from some job fields. Such a conviction often will temporarily preclude a person from other positions until enough time has passed that they have shown they now have a willingness to follow society’s guidelines.

And this felon question on the forms does not immediately mean you cannot have a ham license, it just means that the FCC wants to take a closer look at you, they want more information. You have to explain the situation, what happened, why it happened, etc.

If you came to work at my company you would have to do the same thing, and because of the work we do this seems reasonable to me. If it was less than 5 years since the event, regardless of what it is, you would be ineligible to work here. For certain types of crimes (directly related to the work in question) you would never be allowed to work here, we just would not take a chance on extending you the opportunity to screw up again. For others, after showing a crime free history for a period of time, you would become eligible. Do such policies mean we will never get screwed over by an employee? Of course not, but documented past history shows we will be less likely to have issues with employees that have never been convicted of a felony.

Now should a ham radio license be tied to felony status is a totally different question. I am not sure I like it myself. However once a ham screws up, and the FCC starts to look at him for specific actions, I have no issue with them considering past criminal history especially if the past actions show a trend similar to the actions being investigate.

T!
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 12-30-2017, 11:31 AM
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.That was Excellent Token !....
.
.
I think this subject touches at the social fabric of a society. This government office, the FCC, has been entrusted by the people of the country to protect the citizens from wrong doers. Maybe its a stretch to extrapolate how a felon, given a radio license, will continue to injure society- but that's not the question. The felon violated the public's trust once, and may do it again- thus the issue of character now comes into play.
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I like this definition of License :
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"A license is an exceptional freedom allowed in a special situation, by a government or similar body, to pursue an activity which, without, would be consider'd illegal. ** "
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In that definition, society has given a privilege not accessible to the average person- based on numerous qualifications- including the quality of the character to whom the license is entrusted. Maybe it doesn't matter much about the character of a radio ham (look at 75 metre's) but it does matter if its your surgeon, or airline pilot. Anyone thinking this 'character' issue isn't fair or doesn't want to live in such a restrictive society can go to any of the myriad dirty ball countries that share that ideology.
.........Bon voyage!
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As far as the character of a felon- there are all sorts of felonies, from those consider'd heinous crimes like treason, arson, murder, rape... to felonious jaywalking (facetious, sorry ..) Each misconduct will have to be weigh'd separately against the character of the licensee and what they are being licensed to do...but that's what polite society demands.
And if it sounds harsh, that a felon has to undergo this constant inspection, hey- that's too bad. They were judged once and found wanting- they may have paid their debt to society, but they will continue to be suspect, and therefore judged for the rest of their lives.
.
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I'd let the felony issue go as far as the FCC is concern'd. This is not a license to practice medicine, to master a super tanker- its a license to operate a low power hobby radio on a band like 75 metre's. I'm sure that one more miscreant there. as far as the FCC is concern'd, isn't going to raise any societal alarms.
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And if all else fails, there is FreeBand. What's one more illegal notch in the belt to a felon?
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_______________________________________________
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There are crimes and there are Crimes. Which reminds me of a something from the past ;
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........Alice's' Restaurant , by Arlo Guthrie--- As Alro relates- some crimes just never leave you alone......
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m57gzA2JCcM
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.....................................CF
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.

_________________________________
**Webster

Last edited by Coyote-Frostbyte; 12-30-2017 at 11:42 AM..
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 12-30-2017, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k6cpo View Post
EVERYONE that applies for any kind of license from the FCC is going to be subject to the new requirement, even if they've been licensed for decades.

What new requirement? The old FCC Form 610 asked 'the felony question' and has for decades.

The change is correcting the error of ommision on the newer form.

I've been a ham for over 40 years, and the question has ALWAYS been there.
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Old 12-30-2017, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Coyote-Frostbyte View Post
Maybe its a stretch to extrapolate how a felon, given a radio license, will continue to injure society- but that's not the question.
Check out the case of Jack Gerritsen, in California. He is a political activist/extremist with a 1st Amendment fetish. He had multiple felony convictions, then applied for and received a ham licence. The FCC granted a licence then quickly revoked it. Some of his felonies were radio related... intentional interference type stuff. He went on to become a major pain in the ham community's collective butt.

He wasn't interested in radio, he just discovered it could be useful to further his real agenda - general anarchy. There are some pertinent details that make a good case for keeping ham licenses out of the hands of convicted felons... at least some of them.
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Old 12-31-2017, 2:43 PM
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Keeping any sort of license or permit out of criminal hands is only a partial solution.

We need to keep instrumentalities of crime out of their hands as well. Taking away licenses and permits does not keep criminals from obtaining the objects for which licenses are required and using them to commit crimes. Until automobiles, radios and firearms are designed in such a way as to be inoperable by a person without the proper credentials, the problems will continue.
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