NXDN Updates and Submissions Please :)

[FLANO]

Hello folks,

Now that we can trunk track NXDN with the Uniden x36HP scanners, for those of you who have the capability to ID the signal parameters using a software program, like DSD+, may I please ask that you submit the following:
- System #
- Channel number for the control channel
- RAN #, usually the same as the site #
- Neighbor sites
- If you catch the control channel displaying the voice channel numbers, even if you don't know the voice frequency, please submit those too. This will help later trying to isolate the voice channels to a specific site as we discover the voice channels
- If you can make a best guess on location, if possible, that will help too, as some of the NXDN sites are not showing up in the FCC database under the frequencies that we are detecting them.

Thanks again,
FLANO

 

[buddrousa]

I also second this and would ask that only known data be submitted not guessed at LCN's

 

[Voyager]

- Channel number for the control channel

You need the LCNs (Channel Numbers) for all channels - not just the control channels.

- RAN #, usually the same as the site #

Where did you get that from?

 

[mtindor]

- RAN #, usually the same as the site #

Where did you get that from?

http://forums.radioreference.com/vo...ll-if-nxdn-frequency-trunked.html#post2780598

The voice channel will transmit the Site ID modulus 64 as the RAN value.

http://forums.radioreference.com/wh...nxdn-update-now-available-10.html#post2758624

The RAN value on a NXDN Type-C trunked system is the site number modulus 64. So it is highly likely that the same RAN numbers are the same site. It is not 100% since Site 5 would share the same RAN value as 69, 133, 197, etc. The system being discussed is big enough to have over 64 sites.

So, at least for trunked systems with 64 sites or less, the site RAN = Site #. For systems with more than 64 sites the RAN starts over.


Mike

 

[Voyager]

So, at least for trunked systems with 64 sites or less, the site RAN = Site #. For systems with more than 64 sites the RAN starts over.

I guess some didn't get the "memo", as I have a Site 13 with RAN1.

 

[mtindor]

I guess some didn't get the "memo", as I have a Site 13 with RAN1.

I'd have to see it with my own eyes (no, screenshots don't work). You don't have to prove anything to me. I just simply don't believe that to be the case unless I monitor it with my own DSD+. Until then I'll go with what Eric Cottrell has determined.

Mike

 

[FLANO]

You need the LCNs (Channel Numbers) for all channels - not just the control channels.

Voyager,

My post also has the following bullet statement in the same post a couple of lines down:

"- If you catch the control channel displaying the voice channel numbers, even if you don't know the voice frequency, please submit those too. This will help later trying to isolate the voice channels to a specific site as we discover the voice channels."

Thank you

 

[troymail]

RAN and LCNs can be anything the system admin want it to be - particularly if a single site/closed system.

Lots of discussion lately about spreadsheet LCN calculators.... There is a N96 system near me and I confirmed today that the LCNs are 1,2,3,4, and 5... (no where near any of the calculators).

I have seen some RAN values that match a site number. However, for a local conventional NXDN channel, the RAN is 30.

Don't assume anything...

 

[mtindor]

I have seen some RAN values that match a site number. However, for a local conventional NXDN channel, the RAN is 30.

Don't assume anything...

I know that conventional RANs can be any [allowable] RAN. For now I'll continue to assume that trunked NXDN site RANs = the Site # modulus 64 unless DSDPlus shows different or unless one of the few extremely savvy and vocal experts on here tell me otherwise.

Will that kind of thinking come back to haunt me? Who knows.

Mike

 

[FLANO]

For my .02 ... so far, all of the Trunked NXDN TRS's in Arizona seem to use the RAN and Site # as the same value.

Of course, in other areas, it may differ, and of course, now that I typed this, someone in control of a TRS will change it. Ahh, c'est la vie !

The positive out of this is we are paying attention, n'est pas ?

 

[mtindor]

For my .02 ... so far, all of the Trunked NXDN TRS's in Arizona seem to use the RAN and Site # as the same value.

Of course, in other areas, it may differ, and of course, now that I typed this, someone in control of a TRS will change it. Ahh, c'est la vie !

The positive out of this is we are paying attention, n'est pas ?

Indeed. Fun times figuring stuff out!

Mike

 

[Voyager]

For now I'll continue to assume that trunked NXDN site RANs = the Site # modulus 64 unless DSDPlus shows different or unless one of the few extremely savvy and vocal experts on here tell me otherwise.

Will that kind of thinking come back to haunt me? Who knows.

Well, I've seen it first hand (example above) so I will oppose any blanket statement. It may well be that many systems will go by some (likely manufacturer published) recommendation, but I've seen proof they don't all follow that pattern.

As for haunting you, Mike. Well, that's your choice. I just hope people don't corrupt the database with incorrect info because they assume that blanket statements like that are true.

I have to wonder if some systems will not use a licensed frequency because the "recommended" RAN is already in use on a co-channel system. Could be lots of fun!

 

[bearcat]

deleted

 

[Voyager]

You listed LCNs. What are the RANs for those? (or did you mean RAN 1 and RAN 8?)

 

[bearcat]

You listed LCNs. What are the RANs for those? (or did you mean RAN 1 and RAN 8?)

I deleted my post. I just noticed that I am hearing a NXDN9600 and an IDAS on the same freq. So I really do not know which RAN goes with user. I will need to look at it further

 

[FLANO]

I deleted my post. I just noticed that I am hearing a NXDN9600 and an IDAS on the same freq. So I really do not know which RAN goes with user. I will need to look at it further

It's a learning curve. Don't be intimidated by things you are seeing. Keep a good log of what you are noting and then report once you are convinced of the data.

All efforts to help are appreciated

 

[FLANO]

Something else to help you ID those voice frequencies when you don't have a clue who they are, concerning the NXDN related stuff when using DSD+. Please understand this relates to initially using DSD+ to help ID frequencies.

I am sitting on 451.825mhz. Per DSD+, it is getting voice hits, displaying the TG #'s, and the UID #s and associated "Aliases", what the system calls that particular radio unit. This is good to help ID the system you are listening to, by comparing the TG #s against any previously known data for this system.

Also, on the bottom of the DSD+ "Event Log" screen, it displays the following for this frequency "NEXEDGE48 TB RAN:2".

From previous intercepts, I know that TG #'s 1102, 1600, and 1601, the numbers so far displayed today, are associated to the Com Rents TRS.

This is very, very helpful.

Couple this information with the TG #'s and the RAN number and we see that this is a voice frequency for Site 2, assuming my observations on how, at least the Arizona systems, are assigning RANs.

I have two fairly easy ways to find out what the channel number is for this frequency.

1. Go back to the Control channel with DSD+ for the site and wait for that frequency to show active while simultaneously monitoring it with your scanner. You don't need to have a NXDN capable scanner for this part, hearing the digital sound will be enough. If the signal goes up and down at the same time, you have a candidate for this channel ID. Further evaluation will prove it to be true or not.

When I am on the road, I use this method quite a bit and have been very successful. This method allows me to use my old analog scanner and does not tie up my NXDN/DMR capable scanner so, that I may continue to use it for other things

or,

2. I could make use of my x36HP scanner and simply add the new frequency into the scanner for the site. Then, using the LCN finder, search for the channel numbers until the scanner says it has ID'd all of the frequencies for that site, assuming this is an active site.

I could jump out early after the x36HP has ID'd some of the site frequencies, if the site is not active, and check back in the radio, to see if I got lucky enough to catch the channel ID for that frequency during my LCN search with the scanner. This is useful, when not all known or suspected frequencies are active for some reason, but you are still able to ID some frequencies which may have been active during your LCN search with this scanner. Very helpful !

Either way, you can fairly easily ID the frequency's associated channel ID for that site.

Time is the only additional requirement to be successful.

Now that you have the channel number, frequency, and site number, submit it please to the database so others may benefit from our shared hobby

Hope this is not too confusing.

 

[Voyager]

It's complex, but so are Channel Numbers. It reminds me very much of trying to determine the fleetmaps from Motorola Type I trunked systems. Back then, we didn't have "Fleetmap Finder" to help.

 

[caphab1]

Mesa Public Schools NXDN

Heres my findings thus far. Im missing Ch 16 and 20 for site 2. Site 1 Im farther away from here in East Mesa so not a clean decode so it may not be as accurate. If anyone has anything else it would be helpful.

;Mesa Public Schools
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 11, 453.875, 453.875, 1 ; cc
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 12, 453.950, 453.950, 5
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 13, 453.375, 453.375, 2
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 14, 453.425, 453.425, 3
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 15, 453.775, 453.775, 4
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 10, 460.60625, 460.60625, 6
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 19, 460.13125, 460.13125, 7
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 9, 460.45625, 460.45625, 8
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 2, 460.0375, 460.0375, 9
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 3, 460.5875, 460.5875, 10
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 18, 460.6375, 460.6375, 11
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 4, 461.58125, 461.58125, 12
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 7, 464.06875, 464.06875, 13
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 6, 463.69375, 463.69375, 14
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 5, 461.9815, 461.9815, 15 ; cc
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 8, 464.41875, 464.41875, 16
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 1, 0.0, 0.0, 17
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 20, 0.0, 0.0, 19

 

[FLANO]

Thank you.

Just to clarify the order:
1st position - Nexedge48 is self explanatory
2nd position - 87 - is System ID
3rd position - 1 or 2 is the site number
4th position - 1-20 are the channel numbers
5th and 6th positions are the frequency,
Position 7 - denotes what ?
CC is self explanatory

This is what we have in the database, prior to your information:

Site 1

CH ID Frequency
1 451.91875
2 460.0375
3 460.5875
4 461.58125
5 461.98125
6 463.69375
7 464.06875
8 464.41875

Site 2

CH ID Frequency
9 460.45625
10 460.60625
11 453.875
12 453.950
13 453.375
14 453.425
15 453.575
16 460.13125

So, comparing your data to the database, you are filling in some holes

Site 1
Channel 1 is in DB
Channel 18 is new

Site 2
Channel 19 is new

It appears missing are Channels 17 and 20.

Heres my findings thus far. Im missing Ch 16 and 20 for site 2. Site 1 Im farther away from here in East Mesa so not a clean decode so it may not be as accurate. If anyone has anything else it would be helpful.

;Mesa Public Schools
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 11, 453.875, 453.875, 1 ; cc
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 12, 453.950, 453.950, 5
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 13, 453.375, 453.375, 2
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 14, 453.425, 453.425, 3
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 15, 453.775, 453.775, 4
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 10, 460.60625, 460.60625, 6
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 19, 460.13125, 460.13125, 7
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 9, 460.45625, 460.45625, 8
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 2, 460.0375, 460.0375, 9
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 3, 460.5875, 460.5875, 10
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 18, 460.6375, 460.6375, 11
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 4, 461.58125, 461.58125, 12
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 7, 464.06875, 464.06875, 13
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 6, 463.69375, 463.69375, 14
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 5, 461.9815, 461.9815, 15 ; cc
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 8, 464.41875, 464.41875, 16
NEXEDGE48, 87, 1, 1, 0.0, 0.0, 17
NEXEDGE48, 87, 2, 20, 0.0, 0.0, 19