Building An Off-Center Fed Dipole Antenna.

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bgkoe

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I'm buiding the Homebrewed Off-Center Fed Dipole Scanner Antenna from RR plans and I wondered (it's been 10 years since I made an antenna) which way the 300/75 ohm balum should face? Does the 75 ohm end go toward the scanner?
Thanks, I appreciate it!

Bill K
 

prcguy

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I question the design of the off center fed antenna and the use of a 75 to 300 ohm balun.
If you made a non symmetrical vertical dipole with one element a quarter wave resonant at 153.3MHz and the other at 283.3MHz it would also cover 460MHz and 850MHz as a 3/4 wavelength antenna. Now you have something that resembles an antenna for VHF hi, UHF mil air, UHF and 800. The good thing about this is the match to 50 or 75 ohm coax will be reasonable and no TV balun would be needed. This type antenna would benefit from a choke balun of 25 #43 ferrite beads at the feedpoint.
Has anyone ever thoroughly tested the off center fed thing with and without the TV balun?
prcguy
 

bgkoe

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Off-Center Fed Dipole Scanner Antenna.

"no TV balun would be needed"

I'll try it both ways,with & without the balum but I'll have ferrite chokes on both times, I use those on many things.

Thanks!

Bill K.
 

W6KRU

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I question the design of the off center fed antenna and the use of a 75 to 300 ohm balun.
If you made a non symmetrical vertical dipole with one element a quarter wave resonant at 153.3MHz and the other at 283.3MHz it would also cover 460MHz and 850MHz as a 3/4 wavelength antenna. Now you have something that resembles an antenna for VHF hi, UHF mil air, UHF and 800. The good thing about this is the match to 50 or 75 ohm coax will be reasonable and no TV balun would be needed. This type antenna would benefit from a choke balun of 25 #43 ferrite beads at the feedpoint.
Has anyone ever thoroughly tested the off center fed thing with and without the TV balun?
prcguy

I need to hear more to understand what you are saying. When you move the feedpoint away from the center of a dipole the impedance goes up, hence the transformer. What is the difference between a non-symmetrical dipole and an off-center fed dipole?
 

prcguy

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The impedance goes up if you consider a mono band antenna but an OCF dipole for multi band use would have to be tested with a vector network analyzer or modeled with software. My non symmetrical dipole comment is referring to the OCF dipole.
Instead of the OFC dipole I'm thinking the 1/4 and 3/4 wave dipole resonant on VHF hi, UHF air, UHF and 800 would be better if it were two symmetrical dipoles, one with 18 1/2" elements and one with 10" elements in parallel with the ends separated a few inches. This would resonate at around 153, 283, 460 and 850MHz and the impedance should be reasonably low for direct coax feed. If I get time I'll test one to see if its worth bringing up again.
prcguy

prcguy
I need to hear more to understand what you are saying. When you move the feedpoint away from the center of a dipole the impedance goes up, hence the transformer. What is the difference between a non-symmetrical dipole and an off-center fed dipole?
 

W6KRU

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Instead of the OFC dipole I'm thinking the 1/4 and 3/4 wave dipole resonant on VHF hi, UHF air, UHF and 800 would be better if it were two symmetrical dipoles, one with 18 1/2" elements and one with 10" elements in parallel with the ends separated a few inches. This would resonate at around 153, 283, 460 and 850MHz and the impedance should be reasonably low for direct coax feed. If I get time I'll test one to see if its worth bringing up again.
prcguy

prcguy

I don't understand the beginning of your statement but the second half sounds like a fan dipole. They work really well for multi-band HF antennas. I can't see why it wouldn't work well fora broadband vhf/uhf antenna. Another point to consider?
 

prcguy

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What I was describing is a fan dipole but not the classic type for HF where there is a 1/2 wave resonant dipole on each band. The HF amateur bands are mostly 2X harmonically related and about the only place one dipole will work at 3X the frequency to provide a low impedance match is a 40m dipole working on 15m, so you end up with a bunch of them (80, 60, 40, 20, 17, 12, 10m) if your matching to 50ohm coax. The VHF and UHF public service bands are 3X harmonically related where one VHF element will make nifty 3/4 wave element at UHF and the same with UHF air and 850Mhz. The trick is for the "unused" elements to be a very bad match to 50ohms and have minimal current flow so they don't radiate with some goofy unwanted pattern. I think a dual dipole with one 18 1/2" pair of elements and one pair 10" long would work out and possibly replace the questionable OCF dipole in the RR wiki.
prcguy
I don't understand the beginning of your statement but the second half sounds like a fan dipole. They work really well for multi-band HF antennas. I can't see why it wouldn't work well fora broadband vhf/uhf antenna. Another point to consider?
 

blueangel-eric

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What I was describing is a fan dipole but not the classic type for HF where there is a 1/2 wave resonant dipole on each band. The HF amateur bands are mostly 2X harmonically related and about the only place one dipole will work at 3X the frequency to provide a low impedance match is a 40m dipole working on 15m, so you end up with a bunch of them (80, 60, 40, 20, 17, 12, 10m) if your matching to 50ohm coax. The VHF and UHF public service bands are 3X harmonically related where one VHF element will make nifty 3/4 wave element at UHF and the same with UHF air and 850Mhz. The trick is for the "unused" elements to be a very bad match to 50ohms and have minimal current flow so they don't radiate with some goofy unwanted pattern. I think a dual dipole with one 18 1/2" pair of elements and one pair 10" long would work out and possibly replace the questionable OCF dipole in the RR wiki.
prcguy

wish i can see a picture of what your describing.
 

nanZor

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bgkoe: The 300 ohm side of the transformer attaches to the ocfd dipole elements and the 75 ohm side of the transformer attaches to the 75 ohm coax. If using a balun with twin-lead on one side and a threaded F-connector on the other, the twin-lead is the 300 ohm side. If you have a "cube" type of balun, the screw terminals are the 300 ohm side and the push-in pin (or threaded f-connector) is the 75 ohm side.

I think part of the confusion in our descriptions is that "ocfd" is not very meaningful anymore. :)

1) A half-wave dipole can be fed at the center directly via 75 ohm coax. You can also move the feedpoint away from the center of this half-wave dipole and use a commonly available 4:1 impedance-tranformer + balun to make it convenient to attach to coax. Ordinarily there is no need to do this as a center connection directly to a half-wave is the most convenient.

2) The wacky "OCFD" dipole is a multiband setup that *requires* the use of an offset feed, and a very special length of each of the legs to get the compromise working on a very wide bandwidth. As you move up and down in frequency, the actual impedance at the feedpoint varies quite a bit, so the antenna is often not really at 300 ohms but above it and below it all the time. The 4:1 transformer just helps bring that variation at the antenna terminals down to an acceptable level for the impedance of the coax, but it never is truly a 300-75 ohm transformation. But- it is close enough for receive-only situations.

Note that due to the extreme non-symetry of the two element lengths in the "ocfd" multiband antenna, about the only thing the tv-type of 300-75 ohm baluns do is provide impedance transformation of 4:1, however any attempt to do any balanced-to-unbalanced conversion is totally swamped. Thus there is hardly any balance at all, and the outer skin of the braid is part of the antenna, unless you choke it for real with perhaps a large handful of broadband ferrites. Or maybe choke it for just one band with a few turns of coax around a 2.5 - 3" plastic bottle, or a pawsey-stub.

3) I recently built a full-wave vertical dipole designed for single-band use, which is also offset. But it is not really an "ocfd" dipole. In this case, the 75 ohm coax was attached directly between the 1/4 wave point and the 3/4 wave point at the "current node". Normally you'd think that an impedance transformer is needed there, but due to the exact lengths of the legs, and since it is designed for single-band use, it is not needed. A choke balun was added since it too is extremely non-symetrical.

Man, I can see where "ocfd" is going to get confusing since they don't exactly share the exact same impedance rules when you slide the feedpoint around on a half-wave :)

prcguy: Hey, that's a great idea concentrating on 153.3 and 283.3 and seeing how it multibands together. It will be interesting to see what the look angles are on those bands, since the ocfd does leave a little to be desired the higher you go in frequency - so does the look angle. Perhaps your version will do better - I'll check it out. Nice tip!
 
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