New California Air to Air Tactical (FM) Frequency Assignments

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SCPD

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I unexpectedly stumbled into a source last week and learned about the following list. I had picked up a rumor last year that additional air to air tactical (FM) frequencies were going to be assigned to the two California Geographical Coordination Centers, Ops Northern CA and Ops Southern CA. Last year's info came with several possible frequencies and the frequencies I obtained this year include most of those. Each forest has a primary and secondary air tactical assignment.

Klamath

165.0750 P Channel 40
168.8375 S Channel 44

Modoc

164.9875 P Channel 38
173.7750 S Channel 49

Six Rivers

168.8375 P Channel 44
167.7000 S Channel 43

Shasta-Trinity

167.7000 P Channel 43
165.0125 S Channel 39

Lassen

168.8375 P Channel 44
167.7000 S Channel 43

Plumas

164.8750 P Channel 36
163.1625 S Channel 31

Mendocino

164.7875 P Channel 35
169.1250 S Channel 46

Tahoe

164.9375 P Channel 37
167.7000 S Channel 43

Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit

168.8375 P Channel 44
167.7000 S Channel 43

Eldorado

162.7500 P Channel 30
165.2250 S Channel 41

Stanislaus

170.5250 P Channel 48
167.7000 S Channel 43

Inyo

169.1250 P Channel 46
168.8375 S Channel 44

Los Padres

168.2625 P Channel 50
164.1500 S Channel 51

Sierra

163.6875 P Channel 32
168.8375 S Channel 44

Sequoia

168.9625 P Channel 45
167.7000 S Channel 43

Angeles

169.1750 P Channel 47
169.1250 S Channel 46

San Bernardino

164.8750 P Channel 36
164.1375 S Channel 33

Cleveland

166.2500 P Channel 42
164.5000 S Channel 34

The authorization of 168.8375 and 167.7000 is for north of 35 degrees 30 minutes within the California border. These two frequencies are used the most frequently. Almost all of these frequencies are not reuses of the national air to ground system frequencies and aren't recycled from some other national use. It should be noted that National Air Tactics 1-5 are not on this list. It is interesting to see 169.1250 listed as that was formally California Travel Net, a system that was supposedly taken away from the Forest Service by the Dept. of Homeland Security about 10 years ago. Why is it now being used on the Mendocino, Inyo and Angeles?

The channel numbers appear to be part of a nationwide list. Channels 30-51 are included here. I wonder how many are on any possible nationwide list? I wonder how they are assigned, in blocks per GACC or are they recycled across the country? I assume that at least Channels 1-29 are listed for use in others portions of the country. If not, why would California start the list at 30?

Everyone needs to keep their eyes open and ears tuned. We may have another new national list of frequencies for aviation use.
 
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scottyhetzel

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Great work Smokey.... Hopefully you have time to submit this... Looking forward to adding these to my forest list. I awesome no P.L.s since you probably would have listed them. Please advise ?.

Also how come they are not AM since they are Air to Air freq. ? Just curious... I could see of it was Air to Ground that would make sense....
 

norcalscan

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conventional, narrowband and no pl. Confirmed today on a fire in the Mendo, and I have seen a few radio loads this year with this information, with no hint of digital, nac or pl. Of course that doesn't say much for future plans...
 

SCPD

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A southern California member sent me the following in a PM:

Earlier this week Cleveland NF assigned Air Tac 34 (164.5000 CSQ) to a working wildland fire. Also used 169.1125 & 135.575 MHz.

Looks like we have some folks with observations confirming what I was given already. Supposedly there is a map of these frequencies somewhere, however, the assignments were made forest by forest and not in a zone fashion as the air to ground and air to air AM fashion. The map would not be very valuable as we all know where each National Forest is so I'm not going to spend a lot of time looking.

There are 22 frequencies for 18 National Forests (included the Lake Tahoe Basin Mngmnt Unit) with each having two assigned, so the duplication/recycling is minimal. Compare that with the air ground count of 7 frequencies for the entire state on the federal side. I'm not sure what the BLM and NPS is going to use given these assignments have been made on a forest by forest basis. Take Yosemite National Park, for example, will the air to air FM frequency assigned for fires on the park be those of the Sierra National Forest or the Stanislaus National Forest?

As always, keep those reports coming and we will figure this out.
 

SCPD

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Do you know if these are P-25 or conventional?

State agencies and local fire departments are not gearing up to use digital on VHF and until, or if, they do, don't expect to see the feds using P25 on wildland mutual aid frequencies. I don't think digital is safe on wildland fires due to the all or nothing characteristic of digital. That is, background noise is not an issue on digital systems, but "going digital" is. The latter refers to the weird, Donald Duck speaking into a can sound that occurs in the foothill areas of some large cities. Up to a point signals with a lot of background noise can be copied, but it doesn't take much to make a digital signal unintelligible.

As these frequencies get used, reassignments are possible, as interference will be experienced between simultaneous incidents. I think some tweaking is possible, although the people assigning these frequencies are fairly experienced with the terrain and distances needed to minimize interference. Use of CTCSS could reduce weak interference, however, its use on wildland mutual aid, simplex, tactical frequencies is without precedence.

This is but another development of getting rid of single frequencies used for one function nationwide. Air to ground is no longer one frequency in California. Now there are two air to air FM tactical frequencies for each forest in California and possibly for each interagency communications center in other states. There are two, and sometimes three, air to ground frequencies for every for almost every 105 interagency communications center in the country, the exceptions being in the midwest and east. There is a national flight following frequency and some communications centers have a local one as well. Most units, be they parks, forests, BLM districts, wildlife refuges and Indian reservations have multiple nets with repeaters covering most of their jurisdictions. These have names such as forest, district, park, refuge, reservation, fire, admin, command, law enforcement, service, medical, and SAR. If you are interested in a longer term perspective of how things were before this type of development, the latter portion of this post recalls what frequencies used to be available for land management and fire fighting. If you are not stop reading here.

OPTIONAL INFORMATION BELOW

When I started with the U.S. Forest Service in 1974 "air net" had not been around all that long. Its frequency was 168.625, which is now "air guard." Air net was used for air dispatch, flight following, air to ground, air tactics and even, in many locations where National Forest dispatch offices were close enough to do so, an inter forest dispatcher's intercom. In my early years I was in the field nearly every hour that snow wasn't on the ground and would be out there when fires were active, but on occasion would be in dispatch getting information for fire reports, keeping company with, or harassing, the dispatchers because they spent all their time alone in a little room. I would hear things such as "Tonto, Coconino, the large one Promontory (lookout) has at 282 (degrees) is the same as Apache Maid's (lookout) 167 (degrees). The fire boss is only asking for one slurry bomber (terms have changed) so send yours to the A Bar S (Apache-Sitgreaves) east of Chevlon Butte, I just got off the phone with Springerville and that one is moving out on them." Note that this is all aircraft related traffic and that a zone coordinator role is not evident. I would also hear more routine traffic on "air net" such as "Coconino, Kaibab, one of our FPT's (fire prevention techs) found an abandoned campfire on your end of Lily Pond Canyon and you need to send one of your FPT's to put it out." Heaven forbid a Kaibab patrol work 200 feet on the Coconino's side of the boundary!

Lookouts near the boundary of two forests would have a packset for each forest on their tables. If phones and the air net were tied up dispatchers would call these lookouts to ask what the situation was on the other forest. Lookouts that became very busy with lots of traffic from each forest were staffed with married couples so each could work one forest during lightning busts. They would not only be reporting locations and conditions of fires, but relaying all traffic from some of those. I believe each forest now has a repeater there. Promontory Lookout is on the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest in Arizona and is very close to the boundary of the Tonto and Coconino National Forests, with the common point of all three forest nearby. A radio for each forest is located there. Its location is on the edge of the Mogollon Rim, a prominent WNW to SSE feature with a significant elevation change that runs over half the width of Arizona. During the monsoon season of July-mid September the rim gets some of the most intense lightning activity in the world and most intense lightning activity over forested lands in the country. Promontory Lookout can be insane during the monsoon season and two people may not be sufficient, one person per forest radio is needed. You can visit Promontory, it is just off the highway from Payson to Springerville, but the public is kicked out during fires. I've parked below it and fired up the scanner during intense lightning storms, WOW!

Interagency wasn't even a word then. If we saw a fire in the distance that wasn't on our forest or off National Forest land we would not even call it in. "That's their fire and we kill our own snakes, not someone else's. Lookouts would call in everything they saw but the dispatcher could not locate most of them because they weren't on the their forest maps nor any of the other forest maps kept in a drawer near their consoles. So the dispatcher would get on the phone and might eventually track down the jurisdiction of the fire. If the fire was on BLM managed land is was considered in "never-never land" as the BLM wasn't much of an agency, let alone have fire fighting capability. BLM land was in sorry shape as the Congress didn't have a common set of policies and laws as to what was going to be done with it, the only policy present was to get rid of most of it and there were very few takers at the time. [A compliment is due here, the BLM finally received clear direction, policy and law from the Congress in 1976 and they have improved hugely!] None of the federal agencies had similar job qualifications or command systems so a fire with multiple agencies on it didn't occur very often. There might be local agreements for mutual aid, such as that between Grand Canyon National Park and the Kaibab National Forest, but agencies usually filled their needs from within. However, red cards (fire qualification) were actually red!

Some of the more remote and large forests in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming as well as forests in Utah, Nevada and Colorado didn't have forest dispatchers, they had ranger district dispatchers. The radio systems had a ranges capable of covering one district. Networking the entire forest together wasn't being done there yet as that would have required remote bases connected by VHF or the very new UHF frequency band. The technology to do so was 15 years old at that time but funding did not keep up with technology. We didn't have repeaters, we called the nearest lookout to relay traffic to other mobile units and, in many cases, to the dispatcher as the location we were in might be blind to the dispatcher's radio, which was usually a remote base on a mountain next to town linked via phone lines. In the fall, winter and spring when a lookout was not staffed we weren't able to talk with anyone from these blind spots.

Some of the older employees I spoke with had been using low band radios about 10-15 years prior to my starting and some retired employees would recall the days of throwing a long, random wire antenna over a tree limb and use the VFO to tune a frequency for calling the ranger district office.

The aircraft only had an air net radio as radios with a sufficient capacity to cover every forest were not available or the number of crystals needed could not be afforded. The only ground unit that carried the ranger district's one air net packset (not handheld it was in a small pack) was that of the FCO (fire control officer - we didn't manage em, we put em out!). If the FCO was sent on a fire off forest or on another fire on the forest then the dispatcher would relay the traffic between the slurry bomber (air tanker) and ground units. Sometimes the pilot would be on the wrong fire and the instructions relayed did not make any sense so he would just dump the load on the wrong fire. Wulfsberg sounded like a place WWII criminals were put on trial and not a radio capable of tuning every frequency in a band. For those of you who don't know, Wulfsberg radios were capable of having each digit (six at the time) dialed in to enter a frequency. The first Wulfsbergs did not have the capability of receiving one frequency and transmitting on another, or transmitting a tone so repeater use was not possible. Some of the aircraft in California had a UHF Wulfsberg as well so they could talk with police departments at first, and then later, fire departments that had moved up onto UHF.

In those days California already had zone coordinators (North Zone and South Zone), which were the only two in the nation that performed as coordinators between multiple jurisdictions and agencies. Each Forest Service region, Park Service region and BLM state office had a coordinator that would, in turn, work with the Boise Interagency Fire Center (BIFC). North an South Zones each had a "zone net" allowing dispatchers to speak to each other via a dedicated point to point radio network. The only separate tactical frequency was the Forest Service's Region 5 "Crew Net" on 168.2000. As for the zone nets, they have been dismantled and have been piggybacked onto the state's microwave system. They also use ROSS (Resource Ordering and Status System) for ordering resources from each other other now. Its been 20+ years since I could hear forests such as the Angeles call the San Bernardino to make requests for things like rolling their Mormon Rock engine to the east end of the Angeles Crest Highway, while in my house in Mono County.

Thankfully we don't have to buy crystals for every frequency anymore and decide what we aren't going to listen to if we put a new one in. If a big fire hit some of us owned crystals for frequencies used on large incidents only. We had to take the covers off radios, use needle nose pliers and replace crystals to listen to the action on a fire that escaped initial attack. We had to find out the frequencies from people inside agencies that talked to their radio techs. In that way our scanners are now simple, but programming them is more complex and time consuming than it used to be. Thank goodness we have this website to communicate with each other!
 

Mike_G_D

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As usual, good information, Fred, and interesting background info! I do have a question, though which is slightly off topic so I apologize but it didn't seem worth starting another thread (yet, anyway): In the RR database for the United States Forest Service in the California region I see that the new air tactics frequencies you have brought to light have been added but then noticed an oddity - why is the "old" air-to-ground frequency listed as 167.475MHz and not 170.000MHz? I've not seen the former before and have known of the latter for eons. I know use of the old 170.000MHz frequency is supposed to be phased out or in the process of being so but never heard of the 167.475MHz listing now in the database.

-Mike
 

SCPD

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Great work Smokey.... Hopefully you have time to submit this... Looking forward to adding these to my forest list. I awesome no P.L.s since you probably would have listed them. Please advise ?.

Also how come they are not AM since they are Air to Air freq. ? Just curious... I could see of it was Air to Ground that would make sense....

I was going to type out a database submission today, but an administrator (kma371) beat me to the punch.

FM air to air tactical carries tactical traffic. Ground units can receive, but not transmit these frequencies. AM air to air is used for aircraft coordination, with the Air Tactical Group Supervisor (ATGS) rotating the fire above, performing air traffic control on AM air to air. In this way the aircraft crew uses AM to contact air traffic control both on the fire and on their flights to and from the retardant and retardant reload bases nearby. The communication functions for the aviation resources are then carried out on two different radios, FM and AM. Larger air tankers have a flight crew, a pilot, a co pilot and sometimes an observer as well. A helicopter dropping water or retardant will have only one pilot and a co pilot on the big Type I ships referred to as "helitankers." Those with two pilots might communicating on one radio each. Crew carrying helicopters cannot have anyone on board except for the pilot alone or with a co-pilot. There is a cone or cylinder of airspace where the local or sector air traffic control frequency is no longer used. You may hear AM air to air frequency traffic such as "Powerhouse Air Attack, Tanker 4-2, returning from Fresno and two minutes out," with a reply of "Tanker 4-2 join the tankers rotating at one-eight thousand for now, and I will assign Lead 5-2 to you in about niner minutes." The assignment for the drop is then made on FM air tactics. AM is used for approaching, staging in flight and departing while FM air to air tactical use begins as soon as aircraft begin to fly into the drop zone. It is important to note that flight following between the incident, the retardant base or reload base is conducted by the local comm center on national or local flight following. When the aircraft begins a flight to a new start on a different forest or is reassigned to a different GACC, AFF (automatic flight following is employed) after confirmation by the sending comm center.

FM air to air tactical frequencies are used by lead planes communicating with tankers showing them the path of their drops and when to open the doors. Typical traffic as a lead plane flies will be "Tanker 4-2, Lead 5-3, you need to follow this line, straddle the ridge like this . . . , drop into the canyon here . . . , then make your drop. . . , right here." The tanker following will try to mimic what had just been demonstrated. The lead plane may make a pass without the tanker to test the air for turbulence, downdrafts and updrafts that will affect the tanker.

The IC, Ops Chief and/or division supervisors will communicate with the ATGS on FM air to ground frequencies. In that chain you have division supervisors speaking with ground resources on the FM ground tactical frequency and with surrounding divisions, Ops Chief and the IC on FM command frequencies. The IC or Ops Chief of moderately sized fires will then contact the ATGS on FM air to ground frequencies and on larger fires the division supervisor will do so directly. On large fires where the division supervisor is not in proximity of a drop zone, the air to ground traffic may be conducted directly between aircraft and a single resource boss, i.e crew boss (crew superintendent for hot shot crews), engine captains for engines, or strike team leaders of those resources (2 per for crews and 5 per for engines) or dozer strike team leaders (2 dozers per). You may hear air to ground traffic such as "you need to have the drop parallel the ridge top at mid slope, but don't drop in the draw at the at the west side because it has a stream in it" and following the drop you may hear "next drop should be lower on the slope and half again as far to the stream." Sometimes those positions will speak with the ATGS, the lead plane, air tanker or helicopter flight crews or pilots directly. It depends on the dynamics, terrain of a fire and the skill level of single resource crew bosses on the ground. Some do very well directing drops because they understand how aircraft fly and don't understand this quite as well. Some division supervisors will hand over directing drops to the ATGS or with an aircraft because no one on the division has a clear view of the fire and/or drop zone. Crew bosses may do the same for the same reasons or because their experience level working with aircraft is not as extensive as others.

On small fires an ATGS is not required if only one aircraft is assigned. The IC of these fires might be a single resource boss, e.g engine captain or hotshot crew superintendent. The pilot of an airtanker assumes some of the duties of the ATGS, such as observing fire behavior and conditions along with making recommendations for aviation actions to the ground units. The IC is the Ops Chief, Division Supervisor, Logistic Chief and Plans Chief all in one. Being IC at this level is a kick in the pants. The IC and aviation resources communicate on air to ground. The IC uses it and ground tactical and with a dispatcher(s) on Forest, Fire, Emergency or Service Net, depending on the practices of the comm center. The ground tactical serves as command net as well.

Following a drop, the lead plane may say "excellent drop, much more on target than the last one." Following that the ATGS will communicate the next task for the aircraft with: "load and return Bishop," "load and hold Bishop," "land and hold Bishop," "land and RON (remain overnight)" Fresno, "you are released, return your base (or Columbia if the ATGS has kept track of where the aircraft is stationed), or "contact Porterville for a new assignment to the LP on forest net (or flight follow). These instructions result from communications with the IC, Ops Chief, comm center and/or directions passed down from the GACC."

It is important to point out the two positions in this process that have a lot on their plate. The division supervisor has two frequencies to monitor all the time, command and ground tactical. Use of air to ground is made, but in my experience the division sup does not listen to FM air to air tactical. There is just too much traffic and too many things to keep track of at once. Division sup has to know and have experienced every job on the division, understand the tactical uses and needs of engines, crews, dozers and water tenders as well as understanding the logistics of keeping them all running.

The other position is the ATGS. This person keeps track and conducts air traffic control for multiple aircraft, both fixed wing and rotary wing. ATGS also communicate with ground resources as to the aviation needs they have. The location of retardant and reload bases and the travel times to and from them, plus the aircraft involved has to be kept up with. The ATGS has to communicate with the ops chief and IC for priorities. The ATGS communicates with the comm center for both logistics and direction from the GACC. The ATGS has to prioritize the use of aircraft using all of the above factors and the shift incident action plan. They communicate on AM air to air, FM air to air tactics, FM air to ground and FM comm center frequencies. Obviously the ATGS has to be talking with the pilot via intercom earphones as well, the same earphones used to communicate on the four different frequencies that are involved. This person also has to understand what the ground pounders do and likely has some seasons in doing that.

This should answer your question about the need and use for both AM and FM air to air tactical frequencies. This is the best of my recollection, so there might be some small errors. Search the words "Air Tactical Group Supervisor" and the first hit should be the training manual for the position. It is an excellent document to gain full understanding of this fascinating subject.

OPTIONAL BELOW i.e. some rambling involved.

There is a huge amount of training, skill, experience and talent on a fire or other type of emergency incident. Firefighting is very complex and strong intuitive, observational, adaptive and leadership skills are necessary. Being able to fit in with the agency and fire service cultures is a must, as is getting along with people in a diversity of settings and circumstances. It takes dedication and perseverance to qualify for positions. Some risk taking and facing fear is present. There is a chance of death and injuries, some of the latter may cause permanent disability. All of these factors are involved in achieving longevity with an agency and that is needed to qualify for ICS positions. Longevity with an agency always involves frustrations that can make a person want to go packing or actually leave. It really takes a passion to do well in fire management and with natural resource agencies. The frustrations involve the public, members of the Congress, political appointees and presidents, some who have strictly ideological agendas that have little to do with the work of the agency. Two administrations in the last 33 years have been hostile, sometimes openly and sometimes behind the scenes, to natural resource agencies and government employees. All of this erodes the passion and hopefully, a person has enough of it to survive until retirement.

The agency, the federal government and most of all the public should understand and value employees willing to give it a go, but they don't always to that. "Sunsets don't pay the mortgage!"
 
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scottyhetzel

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Wow Fred...do you have any pics of the radio set up that an I.C. ? I would love to see the multiple radio comm. unit. I am picturing a Tahoe with a pull out table with radios. Like the CHP comm. unit. I appreciate all the detailed info. And stories you share...

If there is a working fire in a revine ...does everyone go to a simplex channel and communicate that way ? Is white 1 and 2 still used ? Or is this for non forest stuff ?

Also can you tell me aprox. How many fire fighters and admin is there on a typical large fire....I have no idea. Who is the true dispatcher on a working fire ? Who tells the state, Co, cities what to do ? If they are mutual aiding . Can you give us a basic flow chart using numbers. I can not comprehend the structure of a large working fire.... Of course when you get time ... : )
 

norcalscan

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I did a good writeup a long time ago on how to monitor a large fire and make sense of everything. It is at Scan CALFIRE radio

Haha I can see a few minor things that I need to bring uptodate but nothing major that detracts from how to monitor the fire. In the upper right of that page be sure to read up on the Incident Commad System, especially the Command and Operations section. That'll help you understand the big picture of what's happening. The communications outline I did back in the day could be expanded on now but the basics of it is there. Gives you an idea of just how many frequencies could be active on a larger fire.
 

norcalscan

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Exsmokey keep the rambling! That's some awesome history. I have my hands on some historical cdf comm plans from the 60-70 back when it was similar to how you described the forest radio solutions. Single "ranger" wide channels, using lookouts as relays (many still do up in the norcal forests when on an HT in the canyon and can't hit a repeater), etc. Someday I'll scan it all in and throw it online.
 

SCPD

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Wow Fred...do you have any pics of the radio set up that an I.C. ? I would love to see the multiple radio comm. unit. I am picturing a Tahoe with a pull out table with radios. Like the CHP comm. unit. I appreciate all the detailed info. And stories you share...

If there is a working fire in a revine ...does everyone go to a simplex channel and communicate that way ? Is white 1 and 2 still used ? Or is this for non forest stuff ?

Also can you tell me aprox. How many fire fighters and admin is there on a typical large fire....I have no idea. Who is the true dispatcher on a working fire ? Who tells the state, Co, cities what to do ? If they are mutual aiding . Can you give us a basic flow chart using numbers. I can not comprehend the structure of a large working fire.... Of course when you get time ... : )

If a command vehicle is brought in it can be the size of a small delivery truck, smaller than the bread delivery trucks you see at a grocery store. These are usually a local forest resource and very forests have one. The main function of these units is for communications. Dispatch can also be a tent. They don't monitor all the frequencies, usually the incident command and maybe the local forest, park,district, fire, service, or other net, but if there is cell phone coverage they only monitor command. The dispatcher is called the "incident dispatcher." The role of that position is something that I have written in one of several threads about wildland fire in the last week or two. The other frequencies on a fire such as air tactics are usually monitored by the people whose job requires communicating with the resources using a particular frequency. The dispatcher does not have a role to do all communicating for the command post and pass messages along. The dispatcher does not make decisions as to moving resources about. Command personnel do that and often communicate directly with the resources involved without the involvement of the dispatcher. Sometimes the resource unit in the planning section, that tracks and assigns resources per command section direction, is advised of the changes and often not. The division supervisors keep track of what they have on their division and where it is located. A centralized dispatching center is not present. The dispatcher is there to pass messages and to receive requests of personnel that don't monitor the command and tactical frequencies. Requests include such things as vehicle repairs, food and water needs and other logistical type needs. Sometimes people are asked to come up on the command frequency and messages of that type are sent via "runners," people with a message(s) in their hands that find the person to whom it is addressed.

Orders for additional resources are made using ROSS (Resource Ordering and Status System) sent to the local communications center, of which there are 105 around the country. Those orders are then sent up to the GACC and NIFC depending on where the order can be filled. ROSS is a computer based system and incident command posts without access to the internet are provided same via satellite links.

As can be seen in the above, the incident dispatcher does not have the role comm center dispatchers have. I think that they don't even have that title, it might be "incident radio operator" or some such. By the way the real work of a dispatcher working a fire is not done on the radio, it is done on phones and computers with a mobilization guide open to direct them to the contacts and locations of resources and procedures for getting them to an incident. This is a huge endeavor and organizations have to be built, staffed and demobilized quickly. Moving thousands of people, tools and apparatus around the country is complex and involves a lot of people behind the scenes.

There aren't any vehicles equipped with cross band linking gear. VHF High is the band used for wildland fire and agencies that respond to them have VHF radios available in every apparatus or in a cache somewhere and are handed out to individuals and strike team leaders as they assemble for travel to an incident. . NIFC fire caches are located in several places around the country permanently and are transported quickly . Sometimes a state or local agency will bring a command motorhome or large 5th wheel trailer to a fire when in the vicinity of urban areas. The dispatcher may have a console in those vehicles. Sometimes the incident command post, in fact the entire incident base, is located at a school, especially a high school, as there are buildings with large rooms, locations to put in catering vehicles and a dining area with the football field for crew camping. Sometimes a regional park or state park or a county fairground is used. These are pre planned locations with contracts in place. Sometimes fires aren't anywhere near towns and large fields or clearings are used. Sometimes the command post will be set up in a ranger station and the base camp located at or nearby it.

All resources on an incident including county and state law enforcement agency personnel work for the incident commander. The incident command system was designed to integrate all resources with an appropriate supervision structure. There are organization charts available when you do a search using the words incident command system. It will take some hunting around to find a good site that explains everything concisely. There is no way I can type out the details of the incident command system on this forum and I should not. You need to grab the bull by the horns to do some research and reading.

The ground tactical is chosen from the NIFC frequency list or one of the 3 R5 tacticals on a USFS fire in California. Sometimes a tac can be one of the nationwide federal interagency response tacs. Unique frequencies can also be assigned. I've written a lot of lengthy posts in the last week. Go to my profile and you will find all of them, the sum of which explain a lot about wildland fire suppression. On a fire with lots of local resources one of what is now called V Fire 21 through 26 may be assigned to a division and sometimes to the structure protection group. These tacticals are usually used on structure fires The designations of White 1 - 3 no longer exist. It doesn't matter where on a fire people are on they use the ground tactical assigned. On multi-division fires (the division is the basic geographical unit of a fire) each division is usually assigned its own ground tactical.

Divisions are supposed to be no bigger than a division supervisor can walk in one shift and where a simplex frequency can be used to communicate on the entire division. The division supervisor should have about 5 positions to supervise. These can be a combination of dozers, engines, crews and water tenders or strike team leaders when far more resources are involved. As fires get bigger, and more than five divisions are involved the divisions are then assigned to Branch Directors who oversee several divisions. The incident command system was not designed to manage fires with more than about 5 branches. The solution has been to assign another incident management team, that looks just like the command structure of a separate fire. An area team, originally designed to coordinate several individual fires in a group located in an area relatively close together, is then given the overall command command of the fire.

Fires can have as few as two, and sometimes a long time ago one, person assigned. I've been on large fires with as many as 4,000 people assigned. I've worked fires with vehicle access using just my patrol engine from initial attack to declaring the fire out, this when dozens of lightning fires are ignited on one ranger district in one or two days. I've been assigned up to three fires at the same time that are in a small area and are very small <1/10 of an acre or so. The number of overhead and support personnel assigned to a large incident can run anywhere from 10% to 40% of the total and it depends on a lot of factors as to why. What is considered a large fire depends on the vegetation type involved, the location, the amount of private land and structures in and around a fire and even the political sensitivity of the location. Division supervisors, ops chiefs and other supervisory personnel in the operations section can be out on the lines, but are still counted as overhead. There a lot of different positions in the incident command system. Just search using those keywords and start reading!
 

SCPD

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On some multiple branch fires more than one command net might be set up. Sometimes a branch or groups of division may have a repeater on one command frequency pair and other parts of the fire may have another pair all due to topography. The repeaters are linked together using 406-420 MHz frequencies pre assigned for such uses by NIFC so all users listen to one net seamlessly. On area command team run individual fires with more than one incident command team there will be separate command nets, air to ground frequencies, air tactical frequencies, a different set of tacticals. Some can be reused if topography blocks interference from other divisions. I was in Yellowstone in 1988 on the 500,000 acre North Fork Fire.I arrived the last day of August and left in early October. We had two base camps, many branches and a lengthy comm plan. There were 9600 firefighters inside the park. I watched history being made and it was pretty wild. More action and information than you could absorb. I was pretty exhausted most of the time and given that there was no night shift (because of the presence of grizzly bears) the hours were 16 hours per day average with some 18 to 20's. 2-4 hours of sleep and then back to it. I was a crew boss of a army fire crew from Fort Lewis. The day the North Fork fire burned into Old Faithful Village was unforgettable. I'm an adrenaline junkie and got a fix that lasted a long time.

**EDIT** I've written all of my posts about ICS and fires on 2-3 threads off the top of my head. I've been retired for 14 years now and I may have forgotten a thing or two, plus current practices might be different. The accuracy of the ICS is current as I have to take refreshers in it frequently to qualify for our town's CERT organization. Radio use information is as I experienced and continue to hear on a continuing basis. I do hang out with some of my ex coworkers that are not retired yet and get some information that way. Others may have more and better information than I have because they may have worked positions I did not or are still in their careers.
 
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SCPD

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I did a good writeup a long time ago on how to monitor a large fire and make sense of everything. It is at Scan CALFIRE*radio

Haha I can see a few minor things that I need to bring uptodate but nothing major that detracts from how to monitor the fire. In the upper right of that page be sure to read up on the Incident Commad System, especially the Command and Operations section. That'll help you understand the big picture of what's happening. The communications outline I did back in the day could be expanded on now but the basics of it is there. Gives you an idea of just how many frequencies could be active on a larger fire.

You have some good information and some inaccurate or not quite target info on your page. I don't have the time or motivation to help you correct it. I will give you a few quick comments. A fire can last more than 12, 24 or 36 hours without more resources than present at initial attack. Full containment and mop up may last several days, but that does not trigger the assignment of an incident management team. There are 5 types of incidents. The term major fire is not used as a declaration on federal fires, it is a subjective term used mainly by the media. The term extended attack is used when the initial attack is not successful. An extended attack can be handled by all five types of incident command organizations. A fire of 100 acres of timber or 300 acres in brush/grass is called a large fire. Fires receive one of 7 size classes for statistical purposes, with those being A-G. Class A is less than 1/4 acre and class G is anything over 5,000 acres. Suppression management actions are not based on these classes. You can search those terms to find out the sizes of B-F fires. Fires are classified as to their type, 1-5 and actions are based on Types. You can do a search of those terms to get definitions. Groups of fires are sometimes managed by one command team and are called "complexes." I've explained that size does not alone dictate what Type the fire is.

I hope I don't offend you with these comments in this post. Finally, proper capitalization would make the text more readable. Thanks for your work making the information accessible and concise.
 

norcalscan

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I hope I don't offend you with these comments in this post. Finally, proper capitalization would make the text more readable. Thanks for your work making the information accessible and concise.

HA no offense at all. I haven't reviewed that part of my website in a long time and it has just been copy/pasted throughout the various generations of my site since I first wrote it. When I just looked at it a few days ago, it was atrocious. :)
 

SCPD

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I left some details out when describing the air operation group on a fire. First, there can be an air supervision module (ASM) assigned to the fire. An ASM is an air attack and lead plane rolled up into one. Its radio designator is not 'air attack" or "lead" followed by numbers assigned to the agency pilot on board, but "Bravo" followed by some numbers. Air attack ships identify with "Air Attack" followed by the number of the forest they are based on. Example, the Angeles is forest #1 as the numbers are assigned alphabetically, so the air attack ship based at Fox Field is "Air Attack zero one" and the Sierra NF ship based at the Fresno airport is "Air Attack one five." The list of these designations, the base the aircraft and the type of ship (lead, AA or ASM) is in the aviation chapter of the California Mobilization Guide. When you hear "Charlie" one or two it is a CDF air attack.

I also left out the air operations branch director (the big kahuna of everything that flies) and the air support group supervisor who is in charge of the rotary wing ships. Air ops usually stays at the command post or flies in a helo to observe. This may not be accurate as I don't have much experience hanging around their scene as they can be very busy working a situation with little or no margin for error. The branch director spends some time at the airport being used to reload the tankers and at the incident heliport. I think it is a tough position to work.

When an airtanker shows up it will not only direct where it should orbit, but then escorts it down over the fire and makes one pass without the air tanker following, as is the case about 80% of the time. Lead planes do this for two reasons. One, it gives the tanker a good picture and narrative from the pilot about the air movements that will be encountered as well the location the ASM wants the doors opened at to hit the target. Second, it warns people on the ground that the next time it passes an air tanker will follow. Ground personnel that may not have heard an announcement on their radios an air tanker has arrived usually don't miss that first pass, which also gives them an idea of the air tanker's flight path.

Sometimes this is not the case and the lead plane flies over you and then you hear the big lumbering sound of the air tanker and say "s*#@ here he comes." This is followed by some grumbling and cussing while you run for cover. If you are fortunate you avoid the drop altogether, less fortunate if you get snotted on (retardant had that consistency when it is first dropped) and have to clean up yourself, and apparatus and just have to deal with snot on the ground and on logs. It is very slippery and that is one reason it has red dye in it. This situation is worsened as the elevation of the tanker decreases as lower drops don't break up into the mist that is the most effective. The worst case scenario is when the tanker comes into the drop zone and hits a sudden and undetected down draft causing the plane to descend, the flight crew to pucker and the necessity for the crew to drop the load in one salvo close to the ground.

The routine is to take a defensive position and posture to avoid serious injury if this occurs. Your tools need to be separated from your person some distance and down the flight path from you. Your goggles need to be on, your hard hat chin strap firmly in place, with your chest and legs planted firmly on the ground, an arm protecting the area where your hard hat and the ground and your hardhat meet with your head on the pointed up the flight path. When I worked in New Mexico some co-workers were on a tributary ridge of the main ridge of this little 400,000 acre mountain range on our ranger district. The airtanker was the only aviation resource present at the time so a lead plane was not required. The air tanker was given directions on where to drop, which in this case, was on the tributary ridgeline down from the top a quarter to a half mile from the top. The ground crews moved up to the top to be out of the drop zone. The airtanker made one pass to test the air. 'The crew could not hear the tanker until it was over them due to the main ridge blocking the sound. On the drop pass the tanker hit a downdraft after passing over the main ridge, suddenly descending to 100-200' above the ground (AGL) right over the crew. The pilot had to salvo the load or punch the plane into the tributary ridge and he wisely chose to release all doors. The retardant came down to the ground as a rather large water ball right where the crew was sitting on their butts in preparation of getting a good view of the drop. Some were standing up. Now the tributary ridge consisted of basaltic outcrops and rocks of all sizes along with trees 24 inches in diameter and smaller. The retardant ball hit some of the people directly, some were hit by the trees broken off by the force of the ball hitting it and others were hit by gravel, small rocks and some fist sized rocks. The drop broke off trees in an area about 75-100 feet across and several hundred feet in length. Some of the crew were rolled on the ground for the length of the drop and deposited in the trees past the drop, some were rolled partly down the slope, some didn't get moved at all, but were hit by rocks, and some were high enough to watch in horror their crewmates being rolled down the ridgeline. We lucked out as the worst injury was a femur fracture, their were no head injuries resulting from fly rock, being rolled over basalt, or getting hit with large branches. Lots of rib and arm fractures (upper, lower and wrists), cuts and bruises and whacks on their hard hats resulting in a couple of concussions. One guy was taking a dump, fortunately at what became the edge of the drop, and was literally caught with his pants down. The drop just pushed him out of the way a few feet. I think the volume of his deposit may have increased a bit during that evolution. The district lucked out. My involvement in all of this was to hike to this out of the way ridge, take pictures and measurements. It was a rather somber sight that if it didn't put the fear of god in you something was seriously wrong with your views of mortality.

I was one to practice every safety procedure every time even if it looked like it wasn't really necessary. Some of my co workers would chuckle at me and not follow suit, after all I was one of those young college boys. This incident caused some to move toward my view of safety. The atmosphere of the safety practices on that district were lax. Some guys got the idea literally pounded on their heads. Most were of Spanish descent (generations of people who had never been to Mexico) and the "machismo" was deeply rooted. This was a factor in the safety culture of the district.

Younger crew members think it is cool to come back into camp with retardant on their clothes, which shows up nicely on yellow fire shirts, their packs, their helmets and their apparatus. The took the cocky approach with the attitude of looky me, I was really in the heat of the action. Then they get home a week or two later and have to wash the engine, patrol rig or a pickup. You can't have more difficulty washing a vehicle than that other than to put on a hard layer of good wax on it and park it in the sun for a month or more. Tons of elbow grease are used just to clear off a small patch of it. My patrol rig got snotted on once because the wind changed direction and the retardant was real misty. We had a water tender and portable tank close by so I ran back to the rig, started my pump, pulled the hard line off the reel, and washed it right then and there. I was a very happy camper when we completed the mop up. The engine crew had a different take on it as they didn't follow suit with the quick wash. It happened to them again some time later and they called me (I wasn't dispatched to this fire) and requested my presence on scene code 3. I thought it must be blowing up so I complied, only to arrive at a knocked down fire and the engine crew picking their noses next to their empty tanked engine. I fired up my pump, emptied my tank giving the engine a high pressure wash, all the while pissed off for them causing me to run code 3 in violation of policy and at the normal risk off someone plowing into me.

If you want the official and better written version of air ops search the keywords "ICS Air Branch" or "ICS Air Tactical Group Supervisor" and manuals and training materials come up. Those have some nifty drawings that allow a person to visualize the whole shebang. It allows the reader to get the big picture of this part of a fire's ops.

Just keep this in mind. The air show is sexy and dramatic, but is only there to support the ground pounders. The ground forces stop the fire, contain it and put it out. Most of it is not dramatic and can involve some long monotonous and tough hours of backbreaking manual labor. The ground pounders (hand crews) are sometimes tasked with the removal of the large hose lays the engine slugs put in. They walk much further than anyone else on a fire. The dozers kick up a lot of dust which penetrates every opening in your body. This makes your eyes water and plugs your sinuses with massive debris, to put it politely. Some crews have competitions of who can attach the biggest one on the outside of their hardhats. This intra crew competition can become a inter crew competition. Life as a ground pounder on the line can't get better, because you've reached the top, no question about it!

The bottom line is that everyone is working long hard hours. Logistics section positions usually don't get the credit they deserve. Getting small cattle tanks filled with ice and full of cold juices is critical as is filling bins with granola bars and other healthy goodies. Staying on top of some of the caterers is essential. Some caterers know the job and consistently put out a superior product at every meal all season long. Just imagine setting up in a town of 400 people and preparing meals for thousands of people within a few hours of arriving. Those people are gems! Repairing apparatus in remote locations under pressure is hard work. Keeping tools repaired and sharp requires some long hours. The facility guys who build massive tents out of 2 x 4's and tarps make life a lot easier. Some camps are in place long enough that they eventually sign the "streets." Yea, my tent is over near the corner of "Thunderhead and Modoc." The finance section works hard to get everyone paid correctly and they have to interpret poorly written timesheets that have dirt all over them. The plans section can be rough also as there is a lot of information coming in to sort, organize and display. While the resource units leader's job has gotten a little easier with the ROSS software (resource ordering and status system) it still is a mind bender. When I had to do everything manually back before ROSS I would use every neuron in my brain while under pressure to produce a good incident action plan (shift plan) on time. People who haven't been on a large fire have no idea of the sum of the work needed by so many people. It never stopped impressing me.

Thanks to those who have PM'ed me their appreciation of my fire narratives and stories. This should complete the explanation of air ops unless someone with more experience chimes in. We have a few "old and bold" airtanker pilots in our membership that I've traded war stories with on occasion.
 
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NWtoSFO

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You need to take your posts, condense it into a book and sell it here on RadioReference! I've actually printed out some of your responses to read while up watching air ops on some far-off ridge. Keep the info coming!
 

SCPD

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Thanks, but I'm retired. Doing so would just cause another task, causing less time to be available for riding my long distance road bicycle, making sawdust in my workshop, etc. During my career I wrote several thousands letters and memos, public brochures, text for maps, etc. so writing is not something in the works for me.
 

NWtoSFO

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Haha. No worries. However, you've not convinced me that writing is something you don't do much of these days. The threads you're active in are epic in regards to the information you dispense. Even my wife enjoys your posts, and she doesn't frequent this site. You've got a following, I'm sure.
 

SCPD

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Haha. No worries. However, you've not convinced me that writing is something you don't do much of these days. The threads you're active in are epic in regards to the information you dispense. Even my wife enjoys your posts, and she doesn't frequent this site. You've got a following, I'm sure.

The effort writing posts is miniscule compared to writing a book. Printing a book for sale, even if one does not use a publisher, is a large ordeal. Laying out money for something that may not sell very quickly or enough to recoup costs is another knotty problem. It's not worth it to me.

I don't think I have anymore of a "following" than anyone else that shares their knowledge via this site. I would like to discontinue any further discussion of this. I would rather just discuss the information that this website facilitates discussions of.
 
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