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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-06-2015, 1:06 AM
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ok here my question why cant you use a liner on 11 meters and not because the fcc says so. but a practical reason
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Old 06-06-2015, 1:12 AM
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Originally Posted by wwepeter View Post
ok here my question why cant you use a liner on 11 meters and not because the fcc says so. but a practical reason
I don't have a bulletproof answer, but I would guess that the FCC intended 11m/CB to be used for short-distance unlicensed communications for the general-public, like on a farm, or for a few-mile radius within a town, or between traveling vehicles, etc., and that high-power transmissions would reach unnecessarily far, would overpower/interrupt signals to/from other low-power stations "far away", and could damage the final in other units that are close-by. Also, there might be a health reason, if the FCC considers an unlicensed person more likely to be improperly exposed to "high-power radiation" from transmitter-antennas which a licensed person would know to avoid.

Just a guess,
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Old 06-06-2015, 1:14 AM
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Originally Posted by teufler View Post
Propagation is about the same , if not the same. You can shot skip on both bands but one legally and one not which creates the max confusion on 11 meters, I feel. Sure one band has more power available but for some , this does not stop some. The channilized approach on 11 meters is good for quick movements, and some have said it is frs with alittle more power, flexibility of antennas. So locally, 10 is about the same use as 11, though most 10 is ssb and some fm while most 11 is am with a little ssb. Many of us got our start in mobile comms with cb. It was fun, it worked but got embarrasing when the family rode along. Both have a style of radio operations, though I just could not handle the drawl that seemed to be the style on 11 meters. I had friends but lacked the "good buddies" that seemed prevalient on 11 meters. The smokey reports were great but evetually driving more sensiably proved better for gas mileage and so many of the trucks had governers , seemed the interstaTE HAD JUST SLOWED DOWN. If you want to get into 10 meters, there are more than enough ham opperators that will lead you along.
i know i am nit picking but how really can the fcc can control if you hit skip. its hf radio and hf radio will hit skip if only accidentally. That makes no sense to me. back in the 70s i was talking with my friend on the cb and . i went to key up to talk to him when i unkeyed i was talking to a guy 400 miles away. and i wasn't even meaning to . so i dont understand how the fcc can say shooting skip is illegal when it is on a band that makes it simple to hit skip on 4 watts
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Old 06-06-2015, 2:17 AM
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Originally Posted by wwepeter View Post
.really does that make sense that you cant even have one lieing around even if its buried in a closet
That's what the rule says, whether it "makes sense" or not.

The logic seems to be: If you are only an unlicensed CBer, and the CB service explicitly disallows use of linears, and you have a linear, then you must be using the linear illegally on the CB, and if there is other evidence to support this assumption, then you're guilty.


My guess is that some time in the past, the FCC got tired of trying to enforce the rule(s) and not being able to catch "known" violators actually in the act.

So the FCC added/included the clause that if you are unlicensed and have a linear, and have other evidence against you, you're presumed guilty of using it. No additional investigation or station-inspection is necessary.

If you are otherwise licensed (in a service which is allowed to use linears), and have a linear, and have other evidence against you, you are not PRESUMED guilty, but might be determined guilty upon additional investigation or station-inspection by the FCC.

Hope this helps,
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Old 06-06-2015, 3:18 AM
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Since when did the rules have to make sense?

The FCC can't stop your signal from "skipping". It was a stupid rule, unenforceable. I (my own opinion) would agree with QDP, the purpose of CB was for -short range- communications. It wasn't ever intended to be a long range radio service. With the limited amount of channels and the large amount of users it would need to be limited in range to allow the reuse of channels. Having one guy in the Southeast USA on channel 6 and screwing up a channel on either side all over North America is the exact reason for this. Maybe it doesn't make sense now with the limited use of CB by the public, but it made sense back in the late 70s when it seemed like everyone had a CB.

There is no technical reason why you cannot hook up an RF amplifier to a CB, obviously. The reason why the FCC made a rule against it was because what was mentioned above, originally it was intended as a short range radio service. Also, many CB's out there, especially those "tweaked, peaked and tuned" put out so much garbage outside the channel that they'd interfere with stuff all over the place. Used to be TV Interference from CB's was a big issue back in the 70s. Hearing a neighbor come over your TV got to be pretty annoying, and that was just with a stock radio. A guy with an amplifier could screw up a whole town.
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Old 06-06-2015, 3:23 AM
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...and, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the ownership of an amplifier wasn't really the issue. Up until recently the FCC wouldn't type accept an RF amplifier if it would cover the CB band. The FCC probalby would have got you on the type acceptance thing over the actual ownership. Amateur radio amps were usually designed in such a way that they wouldn't work (or wouldn't work well) on CB. They could, however, be modified by the user to cover 10 meters.
That (I think) has changed. FCC relaxed the rules on amateur radio amplifiers and they can now gain type acceptance if they cover the frequencies between the 12 meter and 10 meter bands.
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Old 06-06-2015, 4:07 AM
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Here you go, this is the rule stating that CB is intended to be a short range radio service:

95.401 (CB Rule 1) What are the Citizens Band Radio Services?
The Citizens Band Radio Services are:

(a) The Citizens Band (CB) Radio Service—a private, two-way, short-distance voice communications service for personal or business activities of the general public. The CB Radio Service may also be used for voice paging.

95.408 even covers antenna height. These rules, along with the forbidding of amplifiers is evidence that CB was intended to be a short range service in its conception. A serviced intended for short range wouldn't need amplifiers. Same goes for FRS and MURS, short range services, limited RF power, limits intended for antennas.

Who knows, maybe it's time for the FCC to change the CB rules. Not make it another amateur radio service, but rewrite the rules to make it a bit more useable. Other countries are allowed FM modulation. Adding that in the USA would allow the use of PL/DPL, which would make it a more useful system.
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Old 06-06-2015, 4:37 AM
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Some things that I thought I'd throw in.

First, there is no longer a requirement for a GROL or other commercial license to be held repairing CB's. Only Marine and Aviation still require that. If you read the CFR's there is a cryptic mention to having a industry certification. None I know of exists specifically for CB, however there are others such as NABER/PSG, NARTE, and APCO. I hold the last one. That point is unenforceable. Few commercial shops have certified techs. It has never been enforced that I know of.

Second. In reference to a CB radio operated within the proximity of an amateur station. This is an interesting one that pivots on the last point of presumption and has legal precedent that a waiver can be issued, or at least it did during the 90's when I last worked with Marine. The Coast Guard and Coast Guard
auxiliaries overstepped their authority in a murky gray area that created this problem in the first place. To some degree, the FCC did concede on some conditions. Technically, there is an issue with other service radios being operated within proximity of amateur gear that can operate in the same region. It's most famous example was amateur radio gear and marine equipment sharing the same space on board a boat. A functioning marine HF radio sitting next to an amateur HF radio wouldn't attract much scrutiny. A marine VHF next to a 2m or multi band vhf/uhf with ability to operate outside the bands and an HF radio along side without a marine HF would pose a problem if co-located. It became more of an issue with the coast guard bringing in the FCC that waivers for co-located stations were issued on licenses. Many radio rooms on commercial ships had marine consoles, but also had amateur gear. There would be no question that the RO used the amateur gear unless it was an emergency that the console and reserve gear failed. The same case has been made for CB equipment although I've never heard of a waiver issued as the FCC no longer licenses CB and there would be a zero chance it would come up with a land mobile installation. It would take an act of G-d for the FCC to even bother these days with a CB or amateur installation unless brought in by another agency or there was interference to a service such as aviation or public safety. It's a gray area and one I remember that came up once in a while when a marine pleasure craft either installed a marine transceiver that had continuous capability hidden in firmware rather then channelized or had co-located amateur equipment.

Regarding the amateur-CB animosity. It's pretty much a moot point nowadays. Up to the mid 70's, it was a hot button issue and probably still remains with remaining old timers, many who were never licensed when it occurred. Yet there are some valid reasons too.

1. Many old timers felt that the band was stolen from them. Adding to that was that the 11 M band was still considered an amateur bands in other ITU regions and countries. It was the reason many Japanese transceivers of that day had inactivated 11 meter positions on the band switch. This sore spot has been revived every so often when the FCC has put pressure to manufactures to make amateur equipment unmodifiable in firmware like they did with the cell phone regions in scanners as a knee-jerk reaction. Scanner enthusiasts and hams aren't the same thing, yet the hams got blamed for this one too. Even the early scrambled pay TV and microwave MDS theft of services got blamed on Hams. Somehow cable and Satellite TV companies never tried this. Hams have traditionally become the whipping boys when anything happens in communications.

2. The entire craziness of the CB boom impacted the amateurs at the time unfairly. Mainstream press conflating CBer's with Amateurs was very common. Hams went from respected members of a community to being treated like outlaws causing interference and any time a group of CBer's got into some trouble such as a mast falling over power lines or some kind altercation, they would be referred to as "Hams". Many amateur groups lost club and meeting spaces from benefactors because of fear of liability, school and university amateur stations lost funding and academic support. This also created some new zoning and insurance issues for amateurs that festered for years and responsible for many covenant and HOA restrictions on property today that never existed before.

2.The FCC unfairly tried to pin the problem on amateurs themselves. This needs explaining, but caused one huge sore spot. The FCC during the 70's blamed the amateurs themselves for the illegal use of amplifiers and amateur radios on CB. The FCC told them to clean up their act providing or selling the equipment to CBers or else they would step in. The amateurs responded by point of sale control at amateur sales which it impossible for aspiring novices to buy a transceiver to use as a receiver. Few receivers were being made by that time. No license, no sale of transmitters or transmitting tubes. For their effort regulating their sales, they were sued by a California Communications Atty group and the other Feds stepped in over prohibition of free trade and laws meant to end selective discrimination of customers that you sold to. There were real lawsuits and even the memberships of groups like the ARRL were informed that there would be distributed liability among the membership if they won. Individual amateurs received letters from membership rosters gained by legal discovery informing them of what potential personal liability in specific 6 figures that each of the members would owe if the judgement fell in their favor.

3. Amateurs did get screwed by the FCC anyways. The FCC placed restrictions and for the first time type acceptance on amateur amplifiers that couldn't operate below 15M. It wasn't worth the effort to many companies to comply or make a version for the states. Prices of amps soared due to market fear trade effects. Who was to blame for that?

4. The entire amateur service came under fire from even congressman due to constituency stirred up by the press such as Jack Anderson questioning the spectrum allocated to amateurs. With no comprehension of international law, several congressman were pandering to the public by advocating taking the amateur service away and redistributing it for public access. It could never happen legally, but the demagoguery further p/o'd the amateurs. This seems trivial now, but had a very chilling effect at the time.

5. Class E CB. While most have forgotten this decisive attempt by the EIA and CB manufactures during the mid 70's, it's still in the minds of Amateurs and revived when UPS and Land Mobile concerns pushed for reallocation of the 220 spectrum.
They had 11 meters taken from them thanks to the consumer electronics sector, another assault was made again. It was such a foregone conclusion that the hams were screwed again by CB, that companies such as Cobra/Dynascan and Midland were already having prototypes and small production runs made in Japan for submission for inital type acceptance. It didn't happen.

6. Interlopers. The Freeband movement and incursion into the CW portion of the amateur bands years ago got pretty bad. Enough that their were intruder watches being conducted all over.

7. Lowering of standards for becoming an amateur. Think for a moment before you react on this one. If you spent years of study to become proficient on a trade certification or received a degree after many years or even a membership in a fraternity like Freemasonary or other society where you invested years of aspiration and training to rise through the ranks. Then one day, any one of these groups just opens up the ranks to anyone willing to memorize a book of questions and answers for access. Not only would you be upset after years of work, it also dillutes the value of your position or trade. Now anyone can be what took years to achieve with little effort or rising through the ranks. This really is craw with a lot of older amateurs. Hams have felt so dumped on over the past 40 years for things that aren't their fault in the first place. There is plenty more, but this is all that comes to mind at this time of the morning.

Don't jump me over the old timer stuff. I'm not holding a position here and don't care. I'm not making an argument and not interested in debating it. If someone wanted the reasons, here is some of it for perspective that might be an uncomfortable reason for lingering animosity. Much of this is old, but still reverberates today in one form or the other. Even former CBer's once licensed as amateurs cop an attitude against their former hobby in the hope to disassociate themselves. It makes me think of former smokers becoming holier then thous.
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Old 06-06-2015, 5:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mmckenna View Post
...and, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the ownership of an amplifier wasn't really the issue. ...
Years ago, ownership of an amp might not have been as much of an issue as actual use of an amp.

Back in the 1970's and 80's, state-troopers were citing tractor-trailer drivers for linears, and confiscating them. If the law back then also had the same presumption of guilt statement, then it would make it easier for the trooper to cite the driver than having to visually observe the driver using the linear.

Some of those truckers would blast 1-2kW as they rolled (often slowly) through a town, totally stomping all over other CB'ers and as you mentioned, the TV signals received by those using roof-antennas or even "rabbit-ears", etc. at home. I've also known of situations where a church's microphone cord had a bad connection, and acted like an antenna which picked-up these overpowered truckers, right during the sermon or even worse, during the preacher's prayer. The trucker wouldn't be blamed entirely for that situation, but you could tell the trucker's signal was amp'ed up compared to other CB'ers in the same vicinity. Some of the trucker's words heard by the church's congregation were incompatible with the preacher's message or prayer.

Back in 70's and 80's, over-powered CB's interfered with others all the time. 10m interference was very infrequent, if ever. In my opinion, this was due to the better quality of the amateur station, amateur operator training, and amateur operator interest in "playing well with others", instead of "dominating the airwaves", like some of the 1970's truckers attempted on 11m/CB.
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Old 06-06-2015, 7:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QDP2012 View Post
Back in the 1970's and 80's, state-troopers were citing tractor-trailer drivers for linears, and confiscating them. If the law back then also had the same presumption of guilt statement, then it would make it easier for the trooper to cite the driver than having to visually observe the driver using the linear.
I'd have loved to have heard this back when. NO agency has the jurisdiction to confiscate, inspect, or even cite the improper operation or use of a communications device under Federal law. Unless that device proves to be a clear and present danger to safety or life such as being used next to a posted radio silence area like a blasting zone, the commission of a crime such as using the radios to coordinate a crime or the violation of an existing state law such as the prohibition of the use of a radio that's tuned to a public safety frequency. Another possible reason is alterable evidence. Distraction is another means of circumventing the law with safety concerns, but they still can't legally touch your radio unless they can prove it's stolen and it's a recovery issue.

There's a few other murky areas such as the Coast Guard example that's complicated with international law and safety at sea issues. I would suspect that there are similar with Aviation. I profess no knowledge there. Suffice to say that a police officer has no legal grounds to cite, much less confiscate or inspect a radio installation that's pre-empted by Federal law other then the situations above.
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Old 06-06-2015, 7:40 AM
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Most commenters have missed the point. Amateur radio service is not "a hobby radio service". It is a Radio Service defined in the International Radio Regulations which is a Treaty agreed to by the US government along with 150 or so other Nations. The US is a Member of the ITU, headquartered in Geneve, Switzerland and is the UN agency that regulates radio services. The ITU predates the formation of the UN by more than a 100 years, it was formed to regulate wireline Telegraph prior to the invention of Radio. The next World Radio Conference (only the WRC can modify the Treaty) is scheduled for November 2015 in Geneve. It is where radio amateurs hope to achieve a new amateur band at 60 meters.

"CB" radio is NOT a radio service defined in the RR, there is no "hobby radio" allocated frequencies in the RR.
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Old 06-02-2017, 9:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwepeter View Post
i wipped my rule book that came with my radio which i bought last week
95.411 cb rule 11 may i use power amplifiers

in paragraph d
paragraph c of this section does not apply if you hold a license in another radio service which allows you to operate an external rf power amplifier
Looks like it is stating that paragraph c
Talking about possesing amps doesnt apply if you have a license in other services
But it still doesn't allow use of an amp for cb radio service
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Old 06-02-2017, 9:09 PM
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Originally Posted by wwepeter View Post
you got me on the 4 watts one i you have channelized slots on 10 meters as well unless you on sideband
and the 4 watts thing vs 1500 watts is an fcc thing . this is what i mean what wold be the difference in the band if the ffc let 11 m use 1500 watts ( some ppl are any way ) and according to the ffc rules if you are licensed in any other radio service you can use liner amps on 11 meters . and tbh there's only a couple of channels like 6 and 21 where it is pandemonium. I have hear on some channels some very nice radio ops.
and i hear ppl shooting skip on 10 meters as well . i have just read on these forums that a new ham was being talked down to by older hams . so i think things that go on even on 10 meters.
mainly what i do hear on 10 meters is cw and sideband. i think really the fcc just imposed hard caps on 11 meters when they took it away from the ham band .
Why do you interpret that as meaning you can use an amp on cb radio if its only referring to possessing one?
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Old 06-02-2017, 9:43 PM
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Actually the FCC just recently lifted the 155.6 mile limit on CB radio communications which means it is now perfectly LEGAL to talk skip. They did NOT however increase the power-output limitations. It's still 4 watts A.M. and 12 watts SSB. Additionally, the mere possession of an amplifier capable of 11-meter operation is unlawful, unless you hold a valid Amateur Radio license.

Last edited by KK2DOG; 06-02-2017 at 10:04 PM..
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Old 06-07-2017, 4:27 PM
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Originally Posted by KK2DOG View Post
Actually the FCC just recently lifted the 155.6 mile limit on CB radio communications which means it is now perfectly LEGAL to talk skip. They did NOT however increase the power-output limitations. It's still 4 watts A.M. and 12 watts SSB. Additionally, the mere possession of an amplifier capable of 11-meter operation is unlawful, unless you hold a valid Amateur Radio license.
Yes. It has been considered "prima facie" evidence. Evidence simple enough to convict. Sufficient at its face value to convict.
Some may not like it but that is apparently the courts decision. Similar to having more than a certain quantity of a controlled substance is prima facie evidence to support a conviction of trafficking a controlled substance.

A lot of the "whys" that are asked about CB regulations can be answered when you understand what it originally was supposed to have been used for. That and the way it is now, are two entirely different things.

Quote:
Why do you interpret that as meaning you can use an amp on cb radio if its only referring to possessing one?
Because the Q and A was perhaps worded poorly and mislead him to go that direction.

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Old 06-07-2017, 4:51 PM
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When we look at history and the reason for each of the various services, the only radio service that was intended from the start to be for hobby (or experimenters) was the amateur service. The Part 95 services were intended for small businesses or families that needed radio communication for other reasons. When CB (D service at 27 MHz) started it was chosen partly because equipment for higher frequencies was too expensive for consumer equipment. Reallocating 11 meters created a problem when users found out that 'old' ham gear 'had' 11 meters and started to use unauthorized equipment. As the price of CB came down, many people started using it to talk to other 'stations'-and 'hobby type' operation became more common.

As technology improved, receivers got better and recreational users started to 'DX'. The rules (and rule makers) lagged way behind actual use. Many began to use CB as a 'poor man's' ham radio service. In fact quite a few studied, got their ham licence and continued their hobby on the amateur bands. Some of them still use CB at times, others tend to think of it as a beginning and seem to think everyone should 'upgrade' in time to ham radio. Other amateurs are somewhat offended when someone experiences RFI and seems to automatically blame the guy with the biggest antenna or most power regardless of who is actually at fault.

Today the rules still show their 'roots', Part 95 is basically restricted by rule for users who wan to 'use' a radio but don't want to be required to be examined for a license-so the radios allowed by rule are built so they can only transmit on the authorized channels and with the allow power ect allowed in the rules. Amateurs are examined and by license, are held to a higher standard -they have the 'freedom' to tune around but can be fined if they are out of band. Amateur radios as far back at I can remember could transmit 'out of band' and it was the operators job to stay legal-that includes harmonic suppression, 'spurs', over-modulation, and even RFI -if the transmitter is at fault. Modern radios blur this as people assume you can just 'punch in a frequency' and go-maybe (and maybe not). that is the reason there is no Type acceptance tor part 97-it is the operator's responsibility to ensure proper operation.

The real irony is that the FCC either has not, will not, or more likely can not, keep the 'rules' up to date with usage and technology.
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Old 06-07-2017, 5:17 PM
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As technology improved, receivers got better and recreational users started to 'DX'.
And costs of CB radios in relation to their features went down too as sales increased which was inviting to more "hobby" users.
Many old early 60's CB radios had only a few channels maybe 5 or 7 both transmit and receive. Some had VFO receivers so you could tune in all the channels (and in between them) but still had only a few channels with crystals for transmitting and a spotting switch. Back then a pack of 46 crystals for all 23 transmit and receive was pretty pricey!
Eventually they were synthesized with a small handful of crystals reducing costs.

11 meters was not a popular ham band and got little use. Hams were not primary users of the band. Medical equipment, particularly diathermy machines at hospitals would trash the band and later the CB channels. It was a very wide band floating strong signal. I was on CB for about a year or so back in 1969 before getting a ham license. I was about a mile from a hospital and when the diathermy would start up I couldn't hear anything but that!!
That and 11 meters not being harmonically related to other bands left it not so popular.

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Old 06-07-2017, 6:19 PM
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{Adding to that was that the 11 M band was still considered an amateur bands in other ITU regions and countries. It was the reason many Japanese transceivers of that day had inactivated 11 meter positions on the band switch.
CB radio as we know it was enacted back in 1958 or 9 (I forget which). Yaesu came out with the FT-101 about 1970.
It was of the first (if not the first) transceiver to have 11 meters on the bandswitch.
The earlier offerings (tube transceivers) such as the FTDX-560 and FTDX -400 from Yaesu did not have an 11 meter position on the band switch. Older 50's transmitters such as the Johnson Viking Valiant, Heathkit DX-100 did but they predated CB anyway. There were many of them being used on CB with receivers like the NC-300.
By '69 around here, people had figured out how to order and add a crystal to many transceivers that commonly had unfilled slots for 10 meters. Usually only the most used portion of 10 meters 28-28.5 was supplied to keep costs down. As a result there were a few unfilled 10 meter crystal slots in most all transceivers at that time. Collins, Drake Yaesu and many others were being used on CB by "Bootleggers", the common term back then.
I think Yaesu just saw a feature that would sell more radios for them as the CB thing was growing rapidly at the time. It sure worked.. I was working in a CB/ham shop in 1975 for a while. I am quite sure we sold as many FT101e and ee's to Cber's as we did hams!!

Maybe it was just the free Yaesu wall map that came with it.
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Old 06-08-2017, 7:15 AM
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Originally Posted by wwepeter View Post
i mean unless your getting paid for it then you are a professional radio operator.
There are plenty of people that get paid to talk on a radio that are far from professional....

Makes me think of the volunteer vs. career fire argument where those that get paid claim they're the professionals. Professionalism is a mindset, not a paygrade.
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Old 06-08-2017, 8:50 AM
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To understand how the term 'amateur radio operator' came about, you have to go back almost 130 years when Hertz and Marconi first introduced the spark gap transmitter to the world.

These were put to use commercially for ship to shore and overland wireless communication. These commercial stations were professional services. But, at the same time, there were regular people tinkering in their basements and using the technology. They were considered amateurs... This is where the term came about.

The problem is, that at the time there were no laws or regulations dealing with radio. The people experimenting with radio started causing interference to the commercial operators. This caused friction between the commercial operators and the amateur operators. (Which brought about the derogatory word 'ham'. (Ham isn't an acronym.. It's an English word which doesn't need to be capitalized).

As regulations followed, the non professional operators were moved. They were restricted to wavelengths not exceeding 200 meters. Two Hundred Meters and What it Means (1920)

This meant that hams were free use to ALL the frequencies above 1.5 Mhz. (In other words, part of the medium frequency band, (MF) as well as the entire high frequency (HF) band and above). These short wave lengths were thought to be next to useless.

It was later discovered that for distance transmission the HF bands were far more effective than the frequencies the commercial stations had initially staked out. As a result, the HF band was carved up and allotted to professional services. The bands that remain (160 meters, 80 meters, 40 meters, etc). were what was left. This is why so much of the HF band is reserved for amateur use.

The Amateur Radio Relay League (ARRL), which was founded in 1914 has a pretty good short history of ham radio: Ham Radio History
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