The God's Honest Truth About the Colorado DTRS Changes
- Thread starter jimmnn
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These upgrades always make me laugh - it's the same thing across the country. Here's what I see:
$13.9M to buy a system upgrade, which allows more radio IDs (manufacturer limitation...they should have known that systems are getting big), the capability to go to P25 phase two (capability only, no actual functionality) and Windows Updates (hmmm).
But the users still need to buy consoles to go to P25 phase two, the users still need to buy repeaters that are capable of P25 phase two and the users still need to buy radios that do P25 phase two. For all of the money that Motorola is going to make with users buying phase two infrastructure (medium margin repeaters, high margin consoles and probably a load of really high margin radios), this is a very steep price tag for software and some hardware.
Given the business opportunity that this upgrade will provide to Motorola, they can certainly do can do better on the price than this. Is anyone at the State negotiating a price with them? Has any negotiating or haggling of this price been done?
I bet not
$13.9M to buy a system upgrade, which allows more radio IDs (manufacturer limitation...they should have known that systems are getting big), the capability to go to P25 phase two (capability only, no actual functionality) and Windows Updates (hmmm).
But the users still need to buy consoles to go to P25 phase two, the users still need to buy repeaters that are capable of P25 phase two and the users still need to buy radios that do P25 phase two. For all of the money that Motorola is going to make with users buying phase two infrastructure (medium margin repeaters, high margin consoles and probably a load of really high margin radios), this is a very steep price tag for software and some hardware.
Given the business opportunity that this upgrade will provide to Motorola, they can certainly do can do better on the price than this. Is anyone at the State negotiating a price with them? Has any negotiating or haggling of this price been done?
I bet not
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Kevin_N
Member
That was really well written. Even I understand it.....ha ha.
Is the Public Safety Broadband (LTE) program used for the laptops in police cars or do they use CDMA or some other cell phone technology? Just curious.
BOWLERPBA
Member
I assume that when that happens I won't be able to monitor Longmont off of Sunset. What would be the options then? Use Bald-Mead or Gunbarrel? And is there any time line for them to go to Phase 2.
Mark
Mark
Kevin_N
Member
Sounds like a long way to go still. I think the PSR-800 does phase 2 if you can find one.
Thanks for the link, jimmnn. Very well written, and I like the emphasis on spending taxpayer dollars wisely instead of swallowing the vendor rep's line and just buying all shiny new tech. It's something we don't hear nearly enough nowadays.
Sounds like the timeline for P25 Phase II is 12/31/2016 for 700MHz, with a possible waiver out to 12/31/24, so my PSR500 should work for a little while yet, even though there isn't any 700MHz around Fort Collins (that I'm aware of).
On the Windows side, that's completely understandable, especially if the consoles contact the Internet in any way. XP is going out to pasture next year, so to stay current with updates, etc., you need to upgrade. At any rate, I'm not too worried about my radio becoming obsolete before it either wears out or dies altogether.
Sounds like the timeline for P25 Phase II is 12/31/2016 for 700MHz, with a possible waiver out to 12/31/24, so my PSR500 should work for a little while yet, even though there isn't any 700MHz around Fort Collins (that I'm aware of).
On the Windows side, that's completely understandable, especially if the consoles contact the Internet in any way. XP is going out to pasture next year, so to stay current with updates, etc., you need to upgrade. At any rate, I'm not too worried about my radio becoming obsolete before it either wears out or dies altogether.
Colorado DTRS discussion update
From the Author - Thank you for the kind words, folks. I agree that a lot of this has to do with Motorola needing to feed the beast and they have everyone swallowing the bait It's the way the "system" is designed, however. My intention for the post was to make sure that those folks who have the responsibility to expend taxpayer dollars do so wisely, stepping back and looking at all options on the table before proceeding (which many are doing in this case given the rather lively discussion regarding the survival of the existing network structure we know as the DTRS.
Oh, and Tait Radio is in the process of proposing a P25 Phase II hosted solution for several Front Range system operators (there are seven FCC licensees that comprise the ownership of the DTRS) that cuts the cost of ownership by as much as half that of Motorola. To which Motorola responds, "We can do that too." My opinion is that if we can force a solution that is best for the taxpayer and supports the needs of the public safety community, so be it.
Phase 2 is only being pushed because of actions by the FCC to move 700MHz in this direction, of course. So long as the FCC delays this rule, us taxpayers have some time to plead with our elected officials and their appointees to move cautiously.
Oh, and for those of you at IWCE a few weeks back they did a wonderful demonstration of the Inter-Subsystem Interface (ISSI) and the Console Subsystem Interface (CSSI) seemlessly integrating P25 radio systems from Motorola, Tait, Cassidian (Tait), Harris and others and IP console manufacturers from Telex, Avtec, Motorola, Zetron and others. Shows what can happen when you allow true open standards systems to work together.
From the Author - Thank you for the kind words, folks. I agree that a lot of this has to do with Motorola needing to feed the beast and they have everyone swallowing the bait It's the way the "system" is designed, however. My intention for the post was to make sure that those folks who have the responsibility to expend taxpayer dollars do so wisely, stepping back and looking at all options on the table before proceeding (which many are doing in this case given the rather lively discussion regarding the survival of the existing network structure we know as the DTRS.
Oh, and Tait Radio is in the process of proposing a P25 Phase II hosted solution for several Front Range system operators (there are seven FCC licensees that comprise the ownership of the DTRS) that cuts the cost of ownership by as much as half that of Motorola. To which Motorola responds, "We can do that too." My opinion is that if we can force a solution that is best for the taxpayer and supports the needs of the public safety community, so be it.
Phase 2 is only being pushed because of actions by the FCC to move 700MHz in this direction, of course. So long as the FCC delays this rule, us taxpayers have some time to plead with our elected officials and their appointees to move cautiously.
Oh, and for those of you at IWCE a few weeks back they did a wonderful demonstration of the Inter-Subsystem Interface (ISSI) and the Console Subsystem Interface (CSSI) seemlessly integrating P25 radio systems from Motorola, Tait, Cassidian (Tait), Harris and others and IP console manufacturers from Telex, Avtec, Motorola, Zetron and others. Shows what can happen when you allow true open standards systems to work together.
Kevin_N
Member
Hey, thanks for the info. I'm curious if you've heard phase 2. Does it sound any worse than phase 1? Seems like you would have to give something up unless the technology has just improved that much.
Phase 1 vs. Phase 2
To give you a very simplified answer, Phase 1 is 12.5KHz channel spacing using FDMA. Phase 2 is the same 12.5KHz channel spacing but split into two time slots (TDMA) for an effective 6.25KHz channel width. This MotoTRBO or any of the other offering using the Digital Mobile Radio (DMR) standard. Is it better? The TDMA approach offers a lot of very cool features such as two simultaneous voice conversations in the same channel or one voice and one data (think GPS tracking, SMS messaging, etc.). As current P25 Phase 1 systems replace their infrastructure (their old Quantars), they are replacing them with Phase 2 upgradeable GTR repeaters (speaking MotoSpeak here). Newer offerings from the other vendors (Harris, Tait, etc.) are all coming on line as Phase 2 upgradeable because that is where the P25 standard is migrating to (eventually).
According to conversations with Jefferson, Douglas and Arapahoe County radio system administrators, they will be running their gear in Dynamic Mixed Mode so that Phase 1 subscribers can still operate on the networks (but the conversations move down to the Phase 1 mode). A Denver-based Harris engineer I know says that they are working on a way to have simultaneous Phase 1 and Phase 2 conversations keeping the subscribers in their native modes of operation. Requires translation back at the zone controller in order to function effectively. My guess is Moto is either ahead of them or hot on their heels.
These systems are still trunked. Haven't had anyone give a good explanation on how Phase 2 radios will work in simplex mode. Going to have to think that one through. Anyone have a better or more accurate answer?
To give you a very simplified answer, Phase 1 is 12.5KHz channel spacing using FDMA. Phase 2 is the same 12.5KHz channel spacing but split into two time slots (TDMA) for an effective 6.25KHz channel width. This MotoTRBO or any of the other offering using the Digital Mobile Radio (DMR) standard. Is it better? The TDMA approach offers a lot of very cool features such as two simultaneous voice conversations in the same channel or one voice and one data (think GPS tracking, SMS messaging, etc.). As current P25 Phase 1 systems replace their infrastructure (their old Quantars), they are replacing them with Phase 2 upgradeable GTR repeaters (speaking MotoSpeak here). Newer offerings from the other vendors (Harris, Tait, etc.) are all coming on line as Phase 2 upgradeable because that is where the P25 standard is migrating to (eventually).
According to conversations with Jefferson, Douglas and Arapahoe County radio system administrators, they will be running their gear in Dynamic Mixed Mode so that Phase 1 subscribers can still operate on the networks (but the conversations move down to the Phase 1 mode). A Denver-based Harris engineer I know says that they are working on a way to have simultaneous Phase 1 and Phase 2 conversations keeping the subscribers in their native modes of operation. Requires translation back at the zone controller in order to function effectively. My guess is Moto is either ahead of them or hot on their heels.
These systems are still trunked. Haven't had anyone give a good explanation on how Phase 2 radios will work in simplex mode. Going to have to think that one through. Anyone have a better or more accurate answer?
Kevin_N
Member
Thanks again for the info. Interesting stuff.
grem467
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Phase II TDMA is a (currently) trunking only methodolgy. The radios all operate Phase I on conventional. There is nothing in TIA102 defining conventional (or trunked control channel) in TDMA.
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^ correct
rfburns
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Interpreted as: because that is where the P25 $dollars$ are for vendors.
ISSI does seem to work well in the Dallas/Ft. Worth (DFW) complex. I guess we'll find out first hand when the new Westminster system comes on line.
Thanks for the nice write-up Mark, Ed and Jack.
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Not really...a phase two flash or feature upgrade is only running around $150 per radio. Infrastructure has a somewhat higher cost per base station, but it's not going to let a sales guy buy a new pool for his backyard
You might see it before then elsewhere...
grem467
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When I was in Colorado I noticed a lot of the agencies were still using xts3000s. Even the ones that have xts5000s will need significantly more than 150.00 to do phase 2
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If you buy a new radio, yes - it is much more than $150. I was speaking to the cost of the actual feature.
RFsponge
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Uniden: Hardware or Firmware?
Hello all- Quick question.
I've scoured the forums without finding a totally on-target answer. I'll also PM UPMan. Very simply, will Uniden radios (996T, 396T, 996XT, 396XT, HP1 and HP2) be able to monitor Phase II with a firmware upgrade or will new radios (possibly still in development) need to be purchased in the near future?
Looks like the newer GREs will be able to handle it.
Thanks in advance!
Hello all- Quick question.
I've scoured the forums without finding a totally on-target answer. I'll also PM UPMan. Very simply, will Uniden radios (996T, 396T, 996XT, 396XT, HP1 and HP2) be able to monitor Phase II with a firmware upgrade or will new radios (possibly still in development) need to be purchased in the near future?
Looks like the newer GREs will be able to handle it.
Thanks in advance!
The only scanner currently capable of p25 phase 2 is the PSR-800, if you can find/afford one. None of the other GREs can do it.
As to the Unidens: they have been tight lipped on phase 2 plans.
Phase 2 is TDMA, which requires a different type of receiver design so firmware alone isn't always all there is to it.
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