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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2017, 2:45 PM
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Originally Posted by celestis View Post
Nope. Band 14 LTE was specifically set aside for public safety
While it is for public safety, to make it viable, there will be commercial traffic on it to help pay the freight.
There are several other points to ponder:
1 States can opt out. My state (Colorado) already has some LTE infrastructure running. AT&T cannot cover the state as we want it covered so we may opt out. There is going to be an RFP for a vendor for Colorado only. The state may not go that way but due diligence dictates it must investigate all options.
2. There is no LTE push to talk standard. Harris and Motorola do have implementations out there but with no standard, they are by definition proprietary. I for one see no reason to ditch two way radios in the near future.


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Old 04-01-2017, 1:11 PM
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Ohio better opt out. MARCS has everyone covered.
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Old 04-01-2017, 1:30 PM
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Ohio better opt out. MARCS has everyone covered.
Why opt-out then? If a state were to opt-out, they would have to build it themselves, and your state's opt-out network has to be fully connected to the national one.
If you opt-in, then the Feds (AT&T) build it for you at no cost.

Nobody is mandated to USE the network, but it will exist in every state one way or the other.

(Anyway, MARCS is narrowband LMR, not broadband data. FirstNet is broadband, 4G LTE speeds).
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Old 04-01-2017, 9:00 PM
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What everyone forgets, is that the FEDS get their money FROM US. So it's not really no cost. Think of it as the local loan shark. There is always a 'pass-through' tax.
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Old 04-01-2017, 10:54 PM
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That's great if the city's want to actually "talk" to someone. I am currently in a Citizens Law Enforcement Academy in Kendall County. At the last meeting, the communications manager told us that SAPD does not want their officers talking to anyone else. If SAPD comes to Kendall county on a chase or vice versa, it's the dispatchers on the phone relaying info. All this amounts to a hill of beans if the mindset does not change.
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Old 04-01-2017, 11:22 PM
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I remember seeing print ads for the second generation mobile data terminals (about 1980) would get floor plans to firefighters. Thirty-seven years later does any Fire agency have that today? On the old PBS show "On Computers" (1982x) they had a show about where a talking head said " a officer on patrol in western Texas could get a mugshot and criminal records". Outside of maybe the FBI/ICE/DEA can anyone do that? A lots of promises, very little actual.
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Old 04-03-2017, 5:05 PM
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As a wireless engineer, I'll say ATT's ability in this setting is concerning. ATT is notoriously bad at customer service and solving mediocre network issues (let alone the complex flavor). It would not be difficult to add Band 14 to existing LTE infrastructure. A simple additional modem card in the LTE node in a general case. I see this being an interestingly positive move for public safety in metro areas where coverage is good. In rural settings, maybe not. Unfortunately, ATT is not the right company for this job.
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Old 04-03-2017, 7:40 PM
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I remember seeing print ads for the second generation mobile data terminals (about 1980) would get floor plans to firefighters. Thirty-seven years later does any Fire agency have that today? On the old PBS show "On Computers" (1982x) they had a show about where a talking head said " a officer on patrol in western Texas could get a mugshot and criminal records". Outside of maybe the FBI/ICE/DEA can anyone do that? A lots of promises, very little actual.
We can pull up driver license photos and in state traffic & criminal offense information from our cars and have been able to for 10 years in Alabama. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imnEevGeWf0
This would be one such thing first net would be connecting to.
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Old 04-03-2017, 8:24 PM
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Pretty much ANY LEO with an MDT or laptop properly set up as an MDS client, can pull up DMV/BMV records, DOC, NCIC, Triple I, and other records systems, as well as receive photos, instant E-Warrants, Protection Orders, and tons of other data. FirstNet will just make this available on his smart phone, tablet, or even whatever net gen HT is set up for it. Heck look at the display capability of the BCD436HP, and TRX-1. With those larger view screens, imagine HTs with that with picture, mapping, even short videos.... But, that is still a ways off, especially with AT&T running things lol.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2017, 9:16 PM
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Pretty much ANY LEO with an MDT or laptop properly set up as an MDS client, can pull up DMV/BMV records, DOC, NCIC, Triple I, and other records systems, as well as receive photos, instant E-Warrants, Protection Orders, and tons of other data. FirstNet will just make this available on his smart phone, tablet, or even whatever net gen HT is set up for it. Heck look at the display capability of the BCD436HP, and TRX-1. With those larger view screens, imagine HTs with that with picture, mapping, even short videos.... But, that is still a ways off, especially with AT&T running things lol.
We don't use our radio system for MDT and records checks. Thats done via a mifi. There is another company that will likely be running our LTE here locally. Right now, we get no priority with V....we will with the other solution. I doubt we will go the AT&T route, but Im not in charge of that at all.
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Old 04-04-2017, 7:25 AM
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Ohio better opt out. MARCS has everyone covered.
Ohio is in, you can follow the progress here: Firstnet.Ohio.gov
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:06 AM
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And how does this work for counties like mine that just finished spending 130M on a new P25 system?
I don't get it. Does a county in VA need to talk with someone in Main? What are the benefits that make it the cats meow?
It would have been far easier for your county to pile that 130 million into a big cart, roll it out into the middle of the street, douse it in gas, strike a match, and watch it burn.

Any money spend on anything besides LTE at this point, is just a total waste.

LTE is the killer app/system for public service. It will revolutionize PS communications Just like vehicle mounted two way radio did years ago. All other systems will be rendered obsolete, just like police call boxes were rendered obsolete when two way radio became available.

That 130M P25 system will most likely be abandoned in place within a year of LTE becoming available in that area. The P25 radios will probably be bouncing around in the police cars for a few more years after that, because they won’t be able to find anyone who wants to waste their time to remove the junk from the cars.

People on this forum have done their best to ignore the impact LTE will have, but pretty soon, it will become impossible to continue ignoring it.
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:22 AM
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LTE is the killer app/system for public service. It will revolutionize PS communications Just like vehicle mounted two way radio did years ago. All other systems will be rendered obsolete, just like police call boxes were rendered obsolete when two way radio became available.
I seem to remember hearing the exact same thing about P25 not that long ago.

Truth is there is always going to be a "killer app" on the horizon threatening to make current technology obsolete. There will always be people telling you it's foolish to invest in anything but said upcoming killer app. There will always be counties that will blow $130M on a radio system.

Even in the cellular industry, LTE is old school. 5G is the next "killer app" that were supposed to be looking at.

All I know is I'm pretty dang happy with the analog systems I have. Inexpensive radios, easy to trouble shoot, not dependent on some IT guy deciding that my packets aren't as important as what they are watching on you-tube.

I'm wondering if the first reports of "hacked" FirstNet systems will come this year or if we'll have to wait until early 2018? Anyone want to place a wager on when "freeband LTE" is available? Or how about scanner hobbyists whining about how it's not fair that they can't see all the traffic being carried by FirstNet for their personal entertainment? Wondering when the first amateur radio LTE system is turned up? How soon before the "public safety" nature of it is ignored and "special" users get put on it, politicians, publicly traded companies, utilities, Trump Industries?

Yeah, FirstNet is a good thing, but it's taken so long for the politics to get out of the way that by the time it's turned up the industry will be talking about the next system we need to spend billions of dollars on.

Bend over, here it comes again.
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Old 04-04-2017, 11:12 AM
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I seem to remember hearing the exact same thing about P25 not that long ago.

Truth is there is always going to be a "killer app" on the horizon threatening to make current technology obsolete. There will always be people telling you it's foolish to invest in anything but said upcoming killer app. There will always be counties that will blow $130M on a radio system.

Even in the cellular industry, LTE is old school. 5G is the next "killer app" that were supposed to be looking at.
.......
You are missing one of the primary points of Firstnet.
Firstnet isn’t fixed at LTE, LTE is the just the starting point.
Once they are on LTE, then they will start the (4,5,6,....)G upgrade path the rest of the cellular user base is on.
There is already talk about 5G rollout on firstnet to mirror the rest of the cellular network.

PS will be on a continuous upgrade schedule that will be carried out behind the scenes. Just the same as it is currently with the commercial cellular system. The PS user base will no longer have to worry about transitioning from one discreet system to another. It will be automatic and built into the system.

House Hearing Draws Questions of Whether FirstNet Will Replace LMR Networks

“Rep. Greg Walden, chair of the subcommittee, asked Kennedy about FirstNet’s recapitalization model. “The recapitalized model from an opt in and an opt out perspective is trying to make sure that the nationwide network, the core network itself and the overall network, will not be like a lot of past public-safety projects where we invest a large amount of government grants and other funding into a system that cannot be maintained or upgraded,” Kennedy said. “We’ll be leveraging Advanced LTE, 5G and 6G in the future.””

In connecting public safety, FirstNet also innovates on LTE - and eyes 5G | FierceWireless

"It's essential," said Ken Rehbehn, of 451 Research. "FirstNet needs to be aligned with global standards, and clearly FirstNet must keep an eye on the evolution of 5G."

Building the public safety communications network

“such as when the system migrates to 5G technology”

AT&T, FirstNet to BuildAmerica

“For example, as 5G network capabilities develop in the coming years, FirstNet and AT&T will work together to provide the exponential increases in the speed with which video and data travel across the FirstNet network.
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Old 04-04-2017, 11:38 AM
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I seem to remember hearing the exact same thing about P25 not that long ago.

Truth is there is always going to be a "killer app" on the horizon threatening to make current technology obsolete. There will always be people telling you it's foolish to invest in anything but said upcoming killer app. There will always be counties that will blow $130M on a radio system.

Even in the cellular industry, LTE is old school. 5G is the next "killer app" that were supposed to be looking at.

All I know is I'm pretty dang happy with the analog systems I have. Inexpensive radios, easy to trouble shoot, not dependent on some IT guy deciding that my packets aren't as important as what they are watching on you-tube.

I'm wondering if the first reports of "hacked" FirstNet systems will come this year or if we'll have to wait until early 2018? Anyone want to place a wager on when "freeband LTE" is available? Or how about scanner hobbyists whining about how it's not fair that they can't see all the traffic being carried by FirstNet for their personal entertainment? Wondering when the first amateur radio LTE system is turned up? How soon before the "public safety" nature of it is ignored and "special" users get put on it, politicians, publicly traded companies, utilities, Trump Industries?

Yeah, FirstNet is a good thing, but it's taken so long for the politics to get out of the way that by the time it's turned up the industry will be talking about the next system we need to spend billions of dollars on.

Bend over, here it comes again.
You know 5G is LTE right? Why are all the carriers turning off old school technology for LTE? Because it's cheap and expandable. It's in its name Long Term Evolution. It evolves over time. And you can see it today. QAM256 modulation and channel bonding with carrier aggregation. When Verizon first rolled out LTE the fastest speed you could get is 20Mbps. Now with wider channel spacing and different modulation you can pull 150+ Mbps. My T-Mobile device easily gets 100Mbps and with 700Mhz I don't have signal issues. 5G is just an expression not a physical device. It's just a software update to existing technology.


FirstNet is just a waste of time, money and spectrum. A statewide P25 system is easy enough and using existing carries for computer data is simple. We don't need PTT LTE or a separate LTE network for public safety data. You want voice and data got to TETRA that will solve your dilemma. Oh wait 25Khz channel spacing is too much nowadays.
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Old 04-04-2017, 12:21 PM
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You know 5G is LTE right? Why are all the carriers turning off old school technology for LTE? Because it's cheap and expandable. It's in its name Long Term Evolution. It evolves over time. And you can see it today. QAM256 modulation and channel bonding with carrier aggregation. When Verizon first rolled out LTE the fastest speed you could get is 20Mbps. Now with wider channel spacing and different modulation you can pull 150+ Mbps. My T-Mobile device easily gets 100Mbps and with 700Mhz I don't have signal issues. 5G is just an expression not a physical device. It's just a software update to existing technology.


FirstNet is just a waste of time, money and spectrum. A statewide P25 system is easy enough and using existing carries for computer data is simple. We don't need PTT LTE or a separate LTE network for public safety data. You want voice and data got to TETRA that will solve your dilemma. Oh wait 25Khz channel spacing is too much nowadays.
Yes, I'm aware. My concern is that the handset manufacturers are going to sit back and and let handsets be reflashed to support the changes. Remember, Motorola has set the bar with the constant upgrade pushes to keep the money coming in. I suspect that the LTE handset manufacturers are going to rely on similar sales strategies.

My point was that the equipment manufacturers are in this game to make money. They are not going to be content selling ruggedized handsets to public safety and then just sitting back. This is a huge flood gate that's going to open in handset sales.

I do strongly believe that traditional 2 way radios systems should stay. Couple of reasons for that:
-For now, two way radio manufacturers really understand the sort of abuse their equipment takes. LTE handset manufacturers that are selling to the FirstNet crowd are learning, but I think it's going to take some time to prove themselves.
-The "don't put all your eggs in one basket" thing. Having separate systems is a good idea, but I hear when people suggest that departments will see discontinuing dedicated two way radio service as an easy way to cut the budget. Hopefully this won't be wide spread.
-Old timers like their radios. The simple push to talk function, not having to select the function, talk group, etc. will be something they like.
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Old 04-04-2017, 1:21 PM
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Every network is subject to detrimental activity. Even if your dispatch system gets acted and you lose your multisite 'fartnet' radio system due to hacking, the end user can switch his handheld to something that works point to point when the SITF.

The more we depend on complex systems, the more problems we have when things go terribly wrong. Just ask the FDNY about 9/11.
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Old 04-04-2017, 1:27 PM
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Where I am in NJ, we have had it operational at various times. The concept is GREAT, and I think it is certainly a very good step forward.

My concern is, so many people are confused about what FirstNet is, how it will work, and the technical background. It seems so many people are against it, yet I see many of those people who have very little "technical" clue as to the background for it. That is not meant as a punch at them, but more of pointing out a major hurdle.

For this to be accepted, the Feds and agencies rolling this out need to provide a very basic, non-technical explanation, with clear examples of WHY and HOW this will benefit everyone. They can talk about LTE and Band 14, and "Public Safety Networks" all day long, but too many first responders couldn't decipher that.

I noticed this in our area as many people think this is bad and don't want it, yet they simply don't understand the importance of it. The statement of "we have Verizon and priority service" is clear that the benefits of FirstNet are not realized to the people who will speak up. You can have priority voice service, but I don't believe Verizon has priority DATA service. Where I live, Verizon has horrible coverage and AT&T has great coverage. Go a county away, its the opposite. We do beach concerts and I have priority service on my phone but the towers are so over saturated, it doesn't matter. We used JerseyNet (NJ's implementation of FirstNet) and yes, there were issues at times as it is very new, but it can and does work.

Our state has portable towers and vehicles that can act as a cell tower quickly. Try having Verizon or AT&T come out and put up a portable tower in an hour or 2 during a crisis. Doubtful.

My other issue with this is I believe it is up to each State to implement their own version of it, and that is where I think there may be a lot of issues.

I, for one, again love this concept and think it is very necessary. I am in public safety, and oversee a lot of technology, and the last thing I ever want to deal with is something that will make my life, or the lives of staff who are on the street, harder.... and this has my vote!
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Old 04-04-2017, 6:20 PM
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FirstNet is just a waste of time, money and spectrum. A statewide P25 system is easy enough and using existing carries for computer data is simple. We don't need PTT LTE or a separate LTE network for public safety data. You want voice and data got to TETRA that will solve your dilemma. Oh wait 25Khz channel spacing is too much nowadays.
Ever try to run a command post on 19.2 data?

Ever try to run a command post at an event with 10s of thousands of people, all on their cell phones, and it's impossible to get a text message, call or web page to load? Try using your air card or hotspot to load the weather radar or your incident management website on a laptop.

Prioritization of broadband mobile data is what FirstNet is first and foremost about. Mission critical PTT voice? That may come later.
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Old 04-04-2017, 6:24 PM
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My other issue with this is I believe it is up to each State to implement their own version of it, and that is where I think there may be a lot of issues.
Only if they opt-out.
If a State opts-in, then FirstNet/AT&T builds it for that state.

If a state exercises the opt-out choice, the state's network still needs to be fully compatible and integrated with the national network. Think similar to the way there are roaming partner carriers to the 4 big national carriers...some areas of the country they (the big network) don't own the system, a smaller partner carrier does. But your phone still works. Other than maybe a roaming indication, it's seamless to you.
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