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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2017, 1:28 AM
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Do we NEED Firstnet? Sort of. We need a priority based broadband network - I can agree with that, data is driving everything we do now as first responders.

What should scare you? This,

Motorola Solutions’ push-to-talk solutions, purpose-built public safety applications and intelligent middleware will efficiently bridge communications between land mobile radio and LTE. It will enable public safety agencies to take full advantage of the data capabilities that the new network will bring

The handset cost just quadrupled
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2017, 3:10 PM
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Originally Posted by iamhere300 View Post
What should scare you? This,

Motorola Solutions’ push-to-talk solutions, purpose-built public safety applications and intelligent middleware will efficiently bridge communications between land mobile radio and LTE. It will enable public safety agencies to take full advantage of the data capabilities that the new network will bring

The handset cost just quadrupled
Motorola isn't the only player and they lag behind with convergence.
JVC Kenwood announced they invested $10million into Sonim Technologies.

There are plenty of other vendors who are ready to jump into this market. Could not count the number of vendors at IWCE who were peddling PTT over LTE purpose built devices.

This is just the beginning.

Harris currently offers BeOn in their XL-200 subscribers, seamless roaming between LMR, LTE and WiFi to P-25.

FirstNet isn't going to replace LMR, but it certainly will augment it for voice.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2017, 4:30 PM
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Existing cellular broadband WAS priority based when it was still nAMPS. The cellular companies refused to stick to the standard and favored income instead of priority access. Do you think that AT&T won't do the same when the networks are merged?
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Old 04-08-2017, 12:03 PM
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As several have posted, FirstNet is not a replacement for PTT services. It is primarily going to be utilized in data services (replacing the existing MDTs).

Recently I was at an Astro 25 trunking class where we got on the mythical 6th rack of an GTR8000 trunking site. For those who are unaware, in the early days of 9600 baud P25 trunking, Motorola developed a data solution that was not a part of the P25 standard. Instead of 9.6k…it delivered closer to 36k. Long story short, you don't see go out anymore as it extremely rare since it was quickly surpassed by 3G and LTE based MDTs.

During this conversation, it was discovered that the instructor had spent nearly 25 of his 30 year career with Motorola in cellular technologies. Well, we got to discussing the major downside to PTToLTE…the latency (Motorola does have LTE solutions for those who are unaware). Your looking at roughly 2100-2500 ms of latency currently. What does that mean? From the time you are given a permit tone to the time the other end actually begins receiving is 2.1 seconds, regardless of whether or not you are at the same site. In the field, that's just not practical. For an admin who doesn't rely on radio communications, it'll work.
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Old 04-08-2017, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MCore25 View Post
Your looking at roughly 2100-2500 ms of latency currently. What does that mean? From the time you are given a permit tone to the time the other end actually begins receiving is 2.1 seconds, regardless of whether or not you are at the same site.
But that is for Over The Top Voice. Not MCPTT voice (being finalized in the standards).
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Old 04-08-2017, 12:15 PM
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What would be the latency time be for data....

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Old 04-08-2017, 1:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MCore25 View Post
Well, we got to discussing the major downside to PTToLTE…the latency (Motorola does have LTE solutions for those who are unaware). Your looking at roughly 2100-2500 ms of latency currently. What does that mean? From the time you are given a permit tone to the time the other end actually begins receiving is 2.1 seconds, regardless of whether or not you are at the same site. In the field, that's just not practical. For an admin who doesn't rely on radio communications, it'll work.
This is often referred to as the "Don't Shoot!" test.

Good way to see if it's suitable for public safety use is:
1. Press the PTT button and immediately yell "Don't shoot!".
2. See what the other guy heard.
-Did he hear the full "don't shoot!"?
-Did he hear just "...shoot!"?
-Did he hear absolutely nothing?
-Did the message arrive too late to be useful?
-Or did he not hear anything at all because the handset was in the wrong mode, locked, not connected to the network, etc.

Modern technology can be good, but if it cannot pass the "Don't shoot!" test, it has no place in public safety.
I'm sure manufacturers are working on this and I know FirstNet is pushing for it.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2017, 1:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmckenna View Post
This is often referred to as the "Don't Shoot!" test.

Good way to see if it's suitable for public safety use is:
1. Press the PTT button and immediately yell "Don't shoot!".
2. See what the other guy heard.
-Did he hear the full "don't shoot!"?
-Did he hear just "...shoot!"?
-Did he hear absolutely nothing?
-Did the message arrive too late to be useful?
-Or did he not hear anything at all because the handset was in the wrong mode, locked, not connected to the network, etc.

Modern technology can be good, but if it cannot pass the "Don't shoot!" test, it has no place in public safety.
I'm sure manufacturers are working on this and I know FirstNet is pushing for it.
Very good point that many need to be made aware of!
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2017, 3:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmckenna View Post
This is often referred to as the "Don't Shoot!" test.

Good way to see if it's suitable for public safety use is:
1. Press the PTT button and immediately yell "Don't shoot!".
2. See what the other guy heard.
-Did he hear the full "don't shoot!"?
-Did he hear just "...shoot!"?
-Did he hear absolutely nothing?
-Did the message arrive too late to be useful?
-Or did he not hear anything at all because the handset was in the wrong mode, locked, not connected to the network, etc.

Modern technology can be good, but if it cannot pass the "Don't shoot!" test, it has no place in public safety.
I'm sure manufacturers are working on this and I know FirstNet is pushing for it.
Motorola is well aware of the limitation (why they still push P25). Now when talking with some of those engineers, I was told one of the reasons for the latency is due to the software DSP used by 99% of LTE handset manufacturers. I was also told, a hardware DSP solution would (currently) still be higher than a comparable P25 handset.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2017, 2:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MTS2000des View Post
Motorola isn't the only player and they lag behind with convergence.
JVC Kenwood announced they invested $10million into Sonim Technologies.

There are plenty of other vendors who are ready to jump into this market. Could not count the number of vendors at IWCE who were peddling PTT over LTE purpose built devices.

This is just the beginning.

Harris currently offers BeOn in their XL-200 subscribers, seamless roaming between LMR, LTE and WiFi to P-25.

FirstNet isn't going to replace LMR, but it certainly will augment it for voice.
Again, for software and applications that are firstnet branded, it will be motorola. I never said Motorola is the only handset provider, nor will it be the only software or middle ware provider, but they will be the one poised to offer firstnet "interoperability" and will leave the others in the dust.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2017, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by iamhere300 View Post
but they will be the one poised to offer firstnet "interoperability" and will leave the others in the dust.
Harris is quite a bit more poised than you may think. MSI isn't the only game in town, and Harris has quite a bit more experience (and quite a bit more money) flowing from Federal directions in other business units.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2017, 1:16 AM
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I remember seeing print ads for the second generation mobile data terminals (about 1980) would get floor plans to firefighters. Thirty-seven years later does any Fire agency have that today? On the old PBS show "On Computers" (1982x) they had a show about where a talking head said " a officer on patrol in western Texas could get a mugshot and criminal records". Outside of maybe the FBI/ICE/DEA can anyone do that? A lots of promises, very little actual.
MDT? What is this, 1995? I do that on my cellphone.

My VFD chief's rig runs a wifi hotspot so he can pull up structural plans on his iPad from (we tested) 165' away from the rig. For wildland we used the County's GIS portal from spots where no one has any business having cell coverage (Wilson amp system).
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2017, 12:53 PM
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MDT? What is this, 1995? I do that on my cellphone.

My VFD chief's rig runs a wifi hotspot so he can pull up structural plans on his iPad from (we tested) 165' away from the rig. For wildland we used the County's GIS portal from spots where no one has any business having cell coverage (Wilson amp system).
Must be nice not to operate out in cellular "No Man's Land".

The thing is though, LTE hotspots are interchangeable with the term MDT these days. Only real difference is the install quality. MDT's are generally hard mounted and wired to the vehicle. Doesn't mean the device can't have an AP on it as well but since some other equipment used in your average cruiser (such as the newer dash cams and of course, the laptop) have the option to use wifi doesn't mean it's the preferred method (wired is still preferred).
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2017, 10:59 PM
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To me, MDT still screams of the 19.2 RD-LAP (in theory, usually much slower) crap we were using when I was a fresh-faced rookie, orange screen and all.

Shudder.

As far as cellular no-man's land, I work in rural Alaska. As in, 700 air miles from a fast-food restaurant.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:52 PM
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(But in Alaska, fast food is everywhere if you have a rifle and a fishing pole!!) LOL
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Old 04-12-2017, 1:11 AM
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(But in Alaska, fast food is everywhere if you have a rifle and a fishing pole!!) LOL
Yep, but for us non-residents, it's silly expensive. There is, however, a wonderful TGI Friday's in Anchorage next to the Hilton Garden Inn. That's where I hunt now.
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Old 04-12-2017, 2:14 PM
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You know 5G is LTE right? Why are all the carriers turning off old school technology for LTE? Because it's cheap and expandable. It's in its name Long Term Evolution. It evolves over time. And you can see it today. QAM256 modulation and channel bonding with carrier aggregation. When Verizon first rolled out LTE the fastest speed you could get is 20Mbps. Now with wider channel spacing and different modulation you can pull 150+ Mbps. My T-Mobile device easily gets 100Mbps and with 700Mhz I don't have signal issues. 5G is just an expression not a physical device. It's just a software update to existing technology.
While, yes, 5G is the evolution of the "LTE" method of delivering connectivity, it is not simply a software upgrade. It is a complete hardware/software solution that expands capacity and efficiency of spectrum utilization beyond what we do today. While delivering 100Mbps to the UE is a great marketing tool, it is likely the user will never need a pipe that large. 5G, while delivering beyond the 100Mbps speed test to customers, is more about removing the capacity challenges currently seen with 4G (even beyond the leaps and bounds we've made with carrier aggregation, multi-path tx/rx and spectrum/modulation wins). 5G also brings along smaller deployment packages which will help us increase coverage for less.

I would also propose that your 100Mbps speed tests are going to be riding Band 4 (AWS -1900/2100) rather than Band 13 (LTE) as most carriers utilize Band 4 to carry predominately data.
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Old 04-12-2017, 3:29 PM
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Until I can drive a major Interstate the 40 miles from my home to work without 3 areas of calls that are dropped and 1 aree where there isn't even a control channel signal, all of this stuff is just smoke and mirrors.
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Old 04-12-2017, 4:55 PM
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Until I can drive a major Interstate the 40 miles from my home to work without 3 areas of calls that are dropped and 1 aree where there isn't even a control channel signal, all of this stuff is just smoke and mirrors.
And after driving around a lot of the Western USA, I can tell you that there are a LOT of areas like this.

FIrstnet will be great in metropolitan areas, but the states are really going to have to work hard to figure out coverage for everywhere else.
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Old 04-14-2017, 4:40 PM
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Harris is quite a bit more poised than you may think. MSI isn't the only game in town, and Harris has quite a bit more experience (and quite a bit more money) flowing from Federal directions in other business units.
Being that Harris's PSPC division was down 5 percent on weak orders in the second quarter, I don't know if I would be betting on them taking on 'M' anytime soon. If the PSPC division continues to have weaker resulting quarters it may be time once again to just sell the former GE,Ericsson/ComNet,Tyco Electronics,M/A-Com division to another company. You never know, Midland or even a company like Samsung might possibly be the next inline interested in taking it all on loll!

Last edited by TDR-94; 04-14-2017 at 4:59 PM..
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