Best UPS Backup System?

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TailGator911

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I grew weary looking for the appropriate dept to ask this question so I thought I'd inject it here and if there is a specific forum section for it feel free to point the way.

I am in the midst of rebuilding the shack, from the ground up basically, and I want to invest in an UPS battery surge/backup unit that will effectively run my Dell desktop, monitor, cable modem, router and a pair of scanners or maybe only one depending on the wattage draw. I have already over-extended the budget so I am realistically planning on spending only $250-$300. I am looking to just keep my monitoring up and active only until I can shut down the PC and get the portables into action. Any suggestions?

I'd like to hear from some of you that have a solid blackout backup system in place and what you are using - thanks!

JD
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mmckenna

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How much load will you be putting on it?
How long do you need it to run?
What's your budget?

I've got everything at work from 300 watt under desk UPS's to 60KVA systems running dispatch centers. I can likely point you in the right direction.

What I can suggest is:
If budget is an issue, check around on the used market for an APC system of sufficient size to do what you need.
It's pretty common for some companies to use them until the battery pack dies and then toss them. For non-technical types, they either don't know you can replace the battery pack, don't know how, or it's just easier to requisition a new one.

The battery packs are nothing fancy, often just a string of 12 volt gel cells. APC charges way too much for the batteries, but it's often easier to just rebuild the pack using simple 12v batteries.
Also, you can easily remove the factory battery pack and just use a set of external batteries to run it. In fact, many of the rack mount APC units in the 3000 watt range have an external battery pack connector on the rear. This is usually an Anderson Power Pole type connector designed to connect separate battery packs to extend the run time of the system.

Pick up a used UPS and just replace the batteries, it'll be a lot cheaper than buying new.
 

Project25_MASTR

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How much load will you be putting on it?
How long do you need it to run?
What's your budget?

I've got everything at work from 300 watt under desk UPS's to 60KVA systems running dispatch centers. I can likely point you in the right direction.

What I can suggest is:
If budget is an issue, check around on the used market for an APC system of sufficient size to do what you need.
It's pretty common for some companies to use them until the battery pack dies and then toss them. For non-technical types, they either don't know you can replace the battery pack, don't know how, or it's just easier to requisition a new one.

The battery packs are nothing fancy, often just a string of 12 volt gel cells. APC charges way too much for the batteries, but it's often easier to just rebuild the pack using simple 12v batteries.
Also, you can easily remove the factory battery pack and just use a set of external batteries to run it. In fact, many of the rack mount APC units in the 3000 watt range have an external battery pack connector on the rear. This is usually an Anderson Power Pole type connector designed to connect separate battery packs to extend the run time of the system.

Pick up a used UPS and just replace the batteries, it'll be a lot cheaper than buying new.



I've got 3 in my garage which just simply require new batteries. That's why I kept them.


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TailGator911

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Good information - thanks! I have taken in the info given from here and friends on the air and I am getting an idea of what to put together. The best idea seems to be buying an APC 1500 or 1000 UPS tower and replacing the internal battery (s) with a pair of deep-cycle marine 50-75 aH batteries that would allow for several hours of blackout runtime.

Would I need something like the Iota DLS-55 or the Super PWRgate PG40S backup system to switch the flo of power at the time of power loss??

My only experience with backup systems was with two Tripplite UPS units I acquired at work that needed new batteries. Ordered them and used them as-is (was) They both burned out during a very intense hurricane season of 2004 when I burned out every battery I owned!

If anyone can line this out for me I would really appreciate it - thanks.

JD
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TailGator911

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Oops, to answer your questions, mmckenna...

A computer, monitor, modem and router

Maybe 2 scanners

Would like it to e up 24hrs at least

Budget about $400-500
 

mmckenna

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You may need several batteries to run all this stuff for 24 hours.
Also, since batteries can vent, ideally you want this in a well ventilated area.

You'll need to figure out what the DC current draw is for all that stuff running on the UPS with the input AC power disconnected, then size your batteries appropriately. Keep in mind that the UPS isn't designed to charge a big string of 12 volt cells after a power outage. Might take a day or two to get a few batteries all charged up.

Also, don't rule out a generator. Use the UPS to keep the stuff up long enough to rig up your generator. While generators can be a pain, it'll be a lot more flexible.
At work many of our sites are designed to have 4 to 8 hours or more of battery back up without a generator. However, all our critical phone/radio sites all have a generator that should take over. The battery plants are primarily there to take the load while the generator is coming up to speed, or in the event the generator fails to start, fails to transfer, or runs long enough to exhaust fuel.
 

TailGator911

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The only thing I use a PS for is the 746pro and the Yaesu 2800 and only one at a time. Everything else is wall warted into power surge strips. To go with what I have I would say 12vdc to the separate components.
 

mmckenna

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Depending on what your expectations are:

If you want your radios and your PC up all at the same time, you're going to need a complex system to do that.
Instead, I'd suggest setting up a moderate sized UPS to run the PC and wall warts, and set up a 12 volts supply with a battery revert circuit to power the transceivers.

Putting everything on the UPS is going to require more batteries. Since the conversion from 12 volts (battery) to 120vac (UPS inverter) and back to 12 volts (power your radios) is going to add some considerable losses due to efficiency loss in the conversions, you'd be better off running all the 12 volt stuff directly off 12 volts. Not the UPS batteries, but a separate 12 volt system. You'd hook up your 12 volt power supply to float charge the 12 volt battery system, then just run your radios off the 12 volt batteries.

Keep the UPS for just the PC.
 

TailGator911

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Yeah a generator would be nice, and the way I have my antenna feed lines coming in I could easily sit the generator outside and feed the line in thru the feed-thru tube. Venting batteries might be a challenge. Maybe an enclosed battery box with a dryer-like vent to the outside feed-thru. I am thinking outloud here. I have fuel barrels in the barn. I brought a lot of hurricane supplies up here with me. Seventeen days w/out power might not seem like a long time, but after those seventeen days you really learn about what to have and what you can do without.

Maybe a generator is the way to go. NiMH batts for the portables that I can charge and plug n' play. Maybe get an UPS just to give me enough time to acclimate to the situation at hand and switch things to the gen. I am going to give this some more thought. While the most expensive solution, that would also solve quite a few other dilemmas.

As always, thanks much for the input!
 

TailGator911

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Ok, thanks much, mmckenna, for your advice. I am off to price some generators. UPS for the comp only. The biggest hurdle to this, of course, is to get the green light from the boss :) I have learned that the key to victory is an evening out at Olive Garden and a calculated approach that always has her best interests in mind. Also, using solicitous phrases and comforting grammar including, but not limited to, descriptive terms such as 'homestead', 'security', 'what we really need is' and last but certainly not the least - 'remember the Florida hurricanes?'

That last one always gets her. haha

Thanks again, guys!
 

mmckenna

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Ah, yes, the Minister of War and Finance. I've got one of those, too.

A generator might be a good solution, especially if you get one of the units with the 12 volt output. It's intended for charging vehicle/boat batteries, but it would work fine for keeping a bit of a charge on your radio battery system.

My dad has a small camper trailer, actually a small toy hauler type for his Polaris Rzr. It doesn't have a built in generator like the larger trailers, so it came with a 4KW gasoline generator. It wasn't top of the line generator, something like "power horse" or "Champion" brand. Not a complete dog, but so far it's lasted pretty well. Nice thing about it was they are relatively cheap. It's got a wireless remote for start/stop, etc. Works fine for him and my mom, running the microwave, A/C, etc. You could probably pick up a similar model for less than $1000 new.
For some reason, a year or so ago, he bought a small 2 KW Yamaha generator. It's a quieter unit, and big enough to power the microwave. Since we do a lot of our family camping in cooler environments, he doesn't need the big generator to run the AC unit.
The smaller Yamaha unit is a lot easier to carry, quieter, and seems like a higher quality unit.
I've got a 2KW Honda unit at work. Nice unit, but Honda prices their stuff pretty high. They've got a really good reputation on their generators, though, so it might be worth it if you can swing the budget.

One option to consider, if the Minister of War and Finance says it's OK, is to buy one 2KW unit now. Make sure it's one of the Honda, Yamaha or similar units that use inverters. You can parallel 2 generators together with a kit. That means you could buy a 2KW unit now, wait a few months/year and buy a second with the parallel kit. That would give you two separate units with 12 volt output and 110 volt AC output. Tell her that one could be used to keep the TV/fridge running, or if you really want to live dangerously, get one big generator and tell her it'll keep the washer/dryer and stove running. Let me know how that works out for you.
 

TailGator911

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Minister of War and Finance! I like that. Actually, she's fairly supportive of my hobby (s), knowing that my financial requirements could be a lot worse (i.e., boats, motorcycles, muscle cars, etc) I am a professional bassist, so she puts up with that as well, and we both have become preppers after 22 years of living in Florida. The generator won't even be a sales pitch, as we have that on our to-get list after a new backyard barn (glorified utility shed) that will happen this summer. So, I have tactfully incorporated my amateur radio communications hobby into the prepper program so it is now understood that it is not just fun-time rag-chewing and SkyWarn meetings and Field Day camping trips, but a significant branch of our family survival program. I hope to have it all wired and up and running by the time the leaves turn here in Ohio.

Krokus, thanks for the priceless video! That is exactly what I will price, very nice system! I don't have a garage anymore, we turned it into a TV den with a fireplace a couple years ago, hence the need for a large utility shed, but I could run the generator in the shed with ventilation and run a line to the transfer switch maybe 30 feet away - that would work. Oh, boy. I am feeling the need to draft a new bill for Congress.

Wish me luck on the vote! :)

JD
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lmrtek

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I just use a 400 watt inverter setting on a 125ah battery with a float charger

Its plenty to run my a TV, scanner, and desk lamp for 10 to 12 hours
 

jeepsandradios

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Don't buy deep cycle or marine batteries as other have said they need vented. Those in the RV world are rapidly switching to Lithium and GEL batteries. They don't need venting, can be mounted multiple ways and normally are a better Ah than the others. I have 4 smaller ones in my shack/office and run most my gear off them during a power outage. Unfortunately for me the issue is internet drops from the cable provider so all my feeds go silent.
 

prcguy

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Lithium and many deep cycle Gel batts can get quite expensive for most people when you get to the capacity needed to run AC inverters, computers and other household items for very long. Flooded lead acid batteries are not a problem to vent and you can put a bank of them just outside the house in an appropriate container and they are cheap in comparison to newer technology.

I currently have four 6V 240AH golf cart batteries (in a 12V, 480AH string) charged by 400W of solar panels and the batteries are indoors under a bench that is sealed to the room and vented outside. It was cheap at about $80 per battery at Costco and should last at least several years. Before that I had a string of commercial 2V 720AH Calcium Lead wet cells and 12V worth of those made a 6ft long 18" high battery that weight about 1,000lbs. All that indoors but vented to the outside. I also have about 30lbs of baking soda in a large tray under the batteries and the batteries are elevated a few inches above the tray.

Even with 720AH of batteries, I never considered running the house from that during a power outage because it was not enough to run a refrigerator and other items for very long, I only used it for my large pile of 2-way radios. I have a Honda Generator for powering the house if we ever have an extended outage and it also comes in handy for camping.

On the wet cell venting topic, I had a 1 megawatt UPS where I worked that was intended to run the entire station just long enough to get a pair of 1 megawatt generators started up and synced together. Once a year they would have to test the batteries and would pull about a megawatt from the batteries for up to 20 minutes. An entire room of wet cell batteries would be boiling hard like a pot of water on the stove running full tilt and fans in the ceiling would vent everything no problem as all the Hydrogen sensors were going off.

Bottom line is if you take proper precautions with venting, its not a problem to use wet cell batteries at home. And a generator is your best friend in a power outage.
prcguy

Don't buy deep cycle or marine batteries as other have said they need vented. Those in the RV world are rapidly switching to Lithium and GEL batteries. They don't need venting, can be mounted multiple ways and normally are a better Ah than the others. I have 4 smaller ones in my shack/office and run most my gear off them during a power outage. Unfortunately for me the issue is internet drops from the cable provider so all my feeds go silent.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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Avoid the cheaply made UPS's being sold today. Either find a good industrial UPS or build a battery bank to power an invertor..

I bought an APC 1200VX UPS at the FSU auction over 15 years ago. It is on its fourth set of batteries since I bought it. It is a heavy beast, has true sinewave and two huge 26AH batteries in series. It runs for an extended time and can be turned off and on on demand. This is important as most of the new UPS's will only run when there is mains power, so after they run out, usually in 15 minutes or so, they cannot be turned back on. In theory, I could run this 1200VX at 100% duty cycle and if run from two car batteries in series and provided I can maintain a charge, will run forever.

I also have a MARINE DEEP DISCHARGE (*) battery and 12VDC to 120VAC invertor that I keep charged in the garage and can bring out to run my cable modem and router which are in a closet. This I would consider expanding and using solar to maintain the charge.

(*) available inexpensively at Walmart. I recommend these.
 
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RFI-EMI-GUY

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Don't buy deep cycle or marine batteries as other have said they need vented. Those in the RV world are rapidly switching to Lithium and GEL batteries. They don't need venting, can be mounted multiple ways and normally are a better Ah than the others. I have 4 smaller ones in my shack/office and run most my gear off them during a power outage. Unfortunately for me the issue is internet drops from the cable provider so all my feeds go silent.

As long as you have some natural convection to vent the hydrogen there should be no problem. I use a marine battery and so far haven't had to top it off so the amount of hydrogen generated is minimal. Unless you over charge or over discharge the batteries you should bot have much hydrogen. Frankly the Gel Cell batteries tend to run their lives out in 4 years and cannot be recovered or easily refilled. Lithium Batteries would concern me as they can deflagerate rather violently if they become damaged. I would much rather deal with eliminating a slow hydrogen build up than worry about a melt down.
 

AK9R

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What about in cold climates? Can you leave wet cell lead-acid batteries outside when the temperature goes below freezing? Or below zero degrees F? What is the freezing point of the diluted sulfuric acid solution in a wet cell battery?
 
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