Amateur DMR network - why many separate systems?

[troymail]

I have to believe this has been asked and if so, feel free to point me to or move this to that thread.....

I'm very curious why the amateur DMR networked repeaters are being treated as separate standalone systems in various states.

Examples:

https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=9243

https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=8983

The primary reason I am asking - there is a repeater in the Wilmington NC area (been there for quite some time). I submitted the information back in May but there seems to be some uncertainty regarding setting this up as a new NC system vs. associating it with an existing system (such as the SC Heart system indicated above). As a result (but maybe for other reasons), the submission remains pending.

From the Wilmington repeater, because they are networked, I routinely listen to users from across the country at a minimum (there are also worldwide talkgroups as many know) and they are all related.... just seems like it would make more sense to make this one large nationwide system. Perhaps it is a hardware limitation from the various scanner vendors...

 

[scannermike11]

why would what to go to a DMR system you have less signal
in hills you need more voters to make it work
bad move

 

[INDY72]

We are working on a good fix for this issue... There are technically three (or maybe four now?) networks worldwide, with some sharing and linking among them all. Brandmeister being the most pure DMR IP Site Connect type open like system. Then the more owner controlled types with the largest being DMR MARC. And then DMR +,.... Then you have many, many smaller networks of those big ones, like here in IN.. Hoosier DMR which is mainly a BM net but is tied in closely to the Crossroads DMR which is kind of hybrid, and then there is another network that is DMR MARC affiliated... But, all of them are tied together in various ways, and they do have some shared TGs. And all of these are multiband, 2M, 70CM, 220, and a couple are even adding the 900. And they are adding multimode linked D Star, Fusion, and P25 nets in the mix. With analog patches too. Depending on how you set up your repeater/repeaters, and IRLP, and EchoLINK etc.. It can get confusing.

SO the best solution is going to be to set up the Conventional Trunked type of systems... And then have each repeater on the net in each State as an site... But then we have the TG issue. Being that they have access to literally hundreds of TGs worldwide, and share a few on all the nets, we have to come up with a format of what sets will go to each State, and so on. Do we put the shared ones on each system? And if so, then do we just tell all you folks with the newer scanners to deal with it? Do we list just the TGs for that State? Where do we put the Tacs? 310 thru 317 that are on all DMR systems worldwide? Where do we list the other common TGs? I have tried to set up a pretty good example of this in TN and AR... But this is still going to be a monster that will require some massive planning as it is quite literally, an worldwide DMR IP Site Connect thing.... I have already in fact brought this up in the Admin forums.... SO we will see what happens. (Not to mention the politics in the Amateur Radio world,.. My repeater is the real SkyWarn etc... )

This same issue is also applied to the business and public safety IP Site Connected DMR systems. And with these growing constantly, could get messy ...

 

[scan-pa]

You nailed it. Not every dmr site use or have access to the same talk-groups...

There are now 5, soon to be 6 dmr amature sites, and none of the 6 all share the same list of tg or even the correct time-slot for said tg.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[INDY72]

You nailed it. Not every dmr site use or have access to the same talk-groups...

There are now 5, soon to be 6 dmr amature sites, and none of the 6 all share the same list of tg or even the correct time-slot for said tg.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

There is a work around for the TS issue... Just list as TS wildcard/any slot.... Of course the rest of the Ham guys will not like it, including this future one right here,.. But until some governing agency like the ARRL steps in and makes a guidance about this so EVERYONE is on the same freaking page,... Its just going to get messier...

 

[DaveNF2G]

Imagine the user interface consequences of a single nationwide or worldwide network. One update and every location that has a linked repeater turns green.

 

[dcr_inc]

They cant even have a successful net on TAC 310 once a week without someone (or many) messing it up.. Lets make this circus worldwide !!
I'll keep all of my DMR repeaters on Brandmeister and let the user pick their favorite talkgroup..

 

[dcr_inc]

How are DMR repeaters "Linked"??

Allstar, Microwave or just share a common talkgroup or are they part of a cluster?

 

[N9PBD]

I think what some of you are missing is this is AMATEUR RADIO. It's all about experimentation, and individual efforts. All of these repeaters are privately owned, some by individual hams, others by clubs, or groups. In my case, we are linked to Brandmeister, but if somebody at BM decides to start telling me how to operate my repeater, and what timeslot a talkgroup must be on, then you'll see the birth of another splinter group, or I'll find another network. I control my repeater, but I'm not about to allow some group of other amateurs tell me how to run it. By the way, the ARRL doesn't have any authority. Period. It's an amateur group that are recognized by the Government to act as the advocate for amateur radio, nothing more.

 

[INDY72]

The idea a few of the groups has is to make this easy on everyone when it comes to certain TGs and Slots. Keep at least one slot pretty much open for local ops etc.. And have the worldwide and tacs etc on another across the board so that every repeater is not clogged with stuff and can not be used. If you have a bunch of repeaters all linked in oddball ways , then you could end up with 2 guys wanting to go to a tac to ragchew tie up a hundred repeaters on different slots etc... For more on this see the homepages of say, Hoosier DMR etc... Its not about taking over everyone's complete control. But here in lies the problem, and why trying to properly display this in the DB is going to be a nightmare... Its great when others make my point for me.

 

[popnokick]

What is the definition of the "correct" timeslot (TS) for any given ham radio DMR talkgroup (TG)? Is there such a thing in Amateur Radio DMR systems? I doubt you'll ever see agreement that "talkgroup xxx must ALWAYS be on timeslot yyy" on (this repeater / state / region / country / etc.).

 

[N9PBD]

OK, point given, and point taken. I'm not totally closed to some standardization, I'm just not keen on someone upstream deciding for me how to run my repeater. Our local talkgroups are on timeslot 2, while the state, and regional stuff, and any PTT groups are on slot 1. That's pretty much how most of the DMR repeaters around here run, not by mandate, but by convention.

I get it, some standards make a lot of sense in trying to minimize the chaos. Repeater coordinators are in that group. Although they can't tell me that I can't put my repeater on any old frequency I want, they could make life miserable by putting a new coordinated repeater right on top of the frequency I squatted on. Once all the dust settled, the FCC would tell me to shove off, and find in favor of the coordinated repeater.

Brandmeister could, if they wanted to, make life unpleasant for repeaters that didn't want to follow an arbitrary set of rules. DMR-MARC did, for a long time. If you didn't run a Mother /V\ repeater, and use their C-Bridge, you weren't getting on their network. Many of their repeater owners supposedly also actively blocked non-Motorola radios (although I'm not sure how you would do that). Hopefully it doesn't come to that.

73, Greg

 

[NavyBOFH]

To throw my hat in the ring... I work on the SCHEART system here in South Carolina. It is funded, built, and maintained with state and federal grant money. It is chartered for emergency management and emergency healthcare traffic handling when other systems fail. It is also on a state agency's towers and microwave backhaul on all but 4 or 5 sites out of 30.

That being said - we have it linked to a regional network for ham use and to enjoy the hobby. With the size of our network it is already a mess with the regional talkgroup being overrun with conversations instead of making contact and switching to a "chat talkgroup". TAC310 and TAC1 are the only "outside the region" talkgroups and are enough to cause loading issues on some of the more popular repeaters.

And when an emergency happens and the system needs to go into "emergency mode" - we can pull the plug to the rest of the network and become a statewide only system.

Everything you've described as wants for a national network, or having the ARRL step in, would go against everything in ham spirit, and more specifically the charter of the organization that spent the better part of $100,000 on repeaters, antennas, tower work, etc. You change that ability to provide a mission for the network - goodbye funding - goodbye repeater network.

Now that is just an isolated case - but considering the size of our network across 5 states - us dropping off the regional link means a good 1/3 of the repeater footprint disappears.

 

[DaveNF2G]

I disagree that imposing standards is "against everything in ham spirit". Think bandplans (which the FCC backs). Think NTS. Amateurs do understand (or at least used to understand) that large-scale activities require some central coordination.

 

[dcr_inc]

Time slot assignments are not going to relieve any loading issues.. As for 310 or 1 tying up the repeater, Thats a control operator issue, they can always drop the call on self care.
Educated users are the answer

 

[AI7PM]

...... But until some governing agency like the ARRL steps in and makes a guidance about this ...

ARRL has no authority to do anything. It's an association whose membership is about 22% of the licensed hams in the country, which tells you how well the rest of the hams think the league is handling the association business.

Amateur DMR grew much faster than anyone ever envisioned. It wasn't designed to be a worldwide system, so splintering of systems and new systems popping up will continue. And so will the growth of people with the only way to run it.

 

[INDY72]

And with that new standard popping up.. Its about to get really strange and be a MOTO only thing again until someone figures out a new workaround. But yes, Its a giant worldwide IP Site Connect system with sub networks. But almost all the TGS on ANY machine will work on ANY other machine on any sub network. As long as you know the right freq, and CC, or proper TG/RID combo to hit an IRLP or EchoLINK Node... Thus is the bringing of this back to the main point: How do we set this up properly in the DB? You have the 3 main networks, then big area clubs under them, then smaller clubs that are linked to those, then the individual owned repeaters at the bottom of the listing as they are usually single repeaters. Then you have the literally thousands of TGs, of which almost half are *Systemwide* so to speak....