Why no ham market options for P25?

[canav844]

Stemming from a response of mine in another theread, when you consider that we've had a list of P25 repeaters actively going on this forums since 2004, we're on a 2nd generation of scanners for P25 phase one and they still seem to by flying off the shelves, at least well enough that in my town where there is one inactive P25 public safety system, my local radio shack has only stocked P25 capable scanners.

There clearly seems to be enough people interested in using P25 that there ought to be sufficient market for it to be made available to more of us, and a lower cost than the commercial gear with VFO access and easier to program on the fly, opening the radios to an even larger market of Hams, and doing the same for ham targeted repeaters would further increase that market. Not to mention the fact that P25 has the ability to often is operated in mixed mode on the capable repeaters.

It seems to be quite doable for a reasonable price point (in the same ballpark as what people are spending on APRS and DSTAR); and the used P25 commercial gear seems to sell well on fleabay, so why haven't we seen it offered as an off the shelf solution to ham radio operators?

 

[N4DES]

I see one of the reason as the manufacturers do not want the public safety folks to be able to buy amateur grade P25 equipment, at probably 1/3 the cost of the commercial radios, and put them in service for life-safety applications. This happened many years ago before 800MHz and trunking became very popular where doing the "out of band" mods in VHF and UHF were very popular and some people made some good $ doing the modifications at hamfests or selling how-to books.

You also have the FCC issues with radios that would not be FCC certified for front panel programming in Part 90.

I'm sure there are other's but this is what comes to mind initially.

 

[K2KOH]

For the life of me, I could never figure out why we had to go with a Japanese ARL standard rather than our own, which would have been P25. It makes more sense as well since many hams are aslso ARES and RACES members and may have to monitor frequencies that use P25.

 

[canav844]

I see one of the reason as the manufacturers do not want the public safety folks to be able to buy amateur grade P25 equipment, at probably 1/3 the cost of the commercial radios, and put them in service for life-safety applications. This happened many years ago before 800MHz and trunking became very popular where doing the "out of band" mods in VHF and UHF were very popular and some people made some good $ doing the modifications at hamfests or selling how-to books.

You also have the FCC issues with radios that would not be FCC certified for front panel programming in Part 90.

I'm sure there are other's but this is what comes to mind initially.

Well if they were going to do that then budget driven departments it would stand to reason would just stay FM, there's no digital mandate, yet(I'm just waiting for the commercial lobbyists to pounce on that in 2013:roll. Even still I have thought about this and as Motorola is out there making some radios with such narrow band splits that they cannot be adapted for amateur FM use and with the ability to put both software and hardware restrictions to prevent that, considering right now there's some radios where it's just a resistor preventing that I don't think there's an issue of ability to get approved, nor have I seen any attempts that have been rejected.

For the life of me, I could never figure out why we had to go with a Japanese ARL standard rather than our own, which would have been P25. It makes more sense as well since many hams are aslso ARES and RACES members and may have to monitor frequencies that use P25.

Well there's certain advantages to DSTAR that suit amateurs specifically, but I use it and while I enjoy it, DSTAR is not the end all be all of radio, and this thread is NOT about DSTAR or any other mode vs P25, this is about why we haven't seen any offerings for a P25 ham radio. If this becomes that type of debate I will ask that it be shut down.

That said, with just one major manufactuer we've hardly "gone with it" There's more case for having gone with APRS with two major manufacturers integrating the mode directly into their radios and dozens of other manufacturers offering addons to work with any FM rig. In light of that looking at the commercially offered, similarly priced digital modes, that have proven hams are willing to pay that price point, then look at the P25 community that over a similar time frame has seen success and growth despite the competition and increased difficulty and many times cost of obtaining and converting commercial gear, it only stand to reason that P25 as a mode would be popular enough to hold a significant section of the VHF/UHF amateur market.

 

[N4DES]

Well if they were going to do that then budget driven departments it would stand to reason would just stay FM, there's no digital mandate, yet(I'm just waiting for the commercial lobbyists to pounce on that in 2013:roll. Even still I have thought about this and as Motorola is out there making some radios with such narrow band splits that they cannot be adapted for amateur FM use and with the ability to put both software and hardware restrictions to prevent that, considering right now there's some radios where it's just a resistor preventing that I don't think there's an issue of ability to get approved, nor have I seen any attempts that have been rejected.

I know without a doubt that there is no digital mandate, but try to tell that to the account managers from all of the manufacturers that are stating that the 2013 is a "digital mandate" to the uneducated agency, which happens to be most of them. Motorola isn't the only one doing this and the more digital technologies put out there the more of the same type that they will sell as a Motrbo radio won't talk on an Open Sky system.

As to the bandsplits, I have firsthand knowledge that Motorola will only narrowband the areas of the spectrum that the FCC has mandated that it must happen. The 144-148 and 420-450 Amateur and 162 MHz. NOAA spectrum are at least 2 areas that will not be narrowbanded in future production commercial Motorola radios and will be left with a 25KHz option. We had a very detailed and lengthy thread on Batlabs on just this subject about 2 months ago.

Will it be a resistor pop to open up the newer commercial radio to do wideband? I highly doubt it and also being most current production amateur radios will do narrowband it could be another avenue to put a ham rig in the commercial band in analog, putting the digital conversation aside.

 

[N4DES]

For the life of me, I could never figure out why we had to go with a Japanese ARL standard rather than our own, which would have been P25. It makes more sense as well since many hams are aslso ARES and RACES members and may have to monitor frequencies that use P25.

Maybe because iCOM is a japanese company and fronted the research efforts with JARL and american amateur radio operators love iCOM radios?

As a seperate point, a few months ago I discovered that iCOM applied for a patent on the D* infrastructure. I'm not sure if they received it or not, but for something that they claim is open they probably slammed the door on other manufacturers being able to sell a D* repeater system and associated controller with linking capabilities without paying royalties to iCOM.

 

[canav844]

As to the bandsplits, I have firsthand knowledge that Motorola will only narrowband the areas of the spectrum that the FCC has mandated that it must happen. The 144-148 and 420-450 Amateur and 162 MHz. NOAA spectrum are at least 2 areas that will not be narrowbanded in future production commercial Motorola radios and will be left with a 25KHz option. We had a very detailed and lengthy thread on Batlabs on just this subject about 2 months ago.

Will it be a resistor pop to open up the newer commercial radio to do wideband? I highly doubt it and also being most current production amateur radios will do narrowband it could be another avenue to put a ham rig in the commercial band in analog, putting the digital conversation aside.

I'm not talking Bandwidth of the signal (i.e. wide band vs narrow band) I'm talking about the operating range of the radio. Manufacturers already make UHF radios that do only 450-470 or 450-512 but are incapable of reaching below 450mhz So it stands to reason they have the ability to make it so that you couldn't go beyond the particular ham band the radio was designed for.

 

[zz0468]

There clearly seems to be enough people interested in using P25 that there ought to be sufficient market for it to be made available to more of us...

I think you just nailed the reason you don't see P25 ham gear, and you don't even know it. It's NOT clear that there's enough interest to support an amateur version. The IMBE vocoder is not free, and that cost would have to be passed on to amateurs, who are notoriously cheap. Therefore, there is probably not nearly the market for it that you think there is.

I also suspect that whatever market exists, is being satisfied with the readily available used commercial equipment.

But really... I have to ask why. Compared to 5 KHz deviation FM, it sounds like crap. That's sure not how I'd want MY ham systems to sound.

 

[N4DES]

I'm not talking Bandwidth of the signal (i.e. wide band vs narrow band) I'm talking about the operating range of the radio. Manufacturers already make UHF radios that do only 450-470 or 450-512 but are incapable of reaching below 450mhz So it stands to reason they have the ability to make it so that you couldn't go beyond the particular ham band the radio was designed for.

I think you will find lots of radios from the a majority of the manufacturers begin at 403, Yes there are some that start at 450, but typicially there is a low split and a high split for those models and the low split model does cover the amateur spectrum.

And even ones that are at 450 can usually be modified with a little bit of codeplug hex modifications. That information is available on the internet for the more popular radios.

 

[N4DES]

I also suspect that whatever market exists, is being satisfied with the readily available used commercial equipment.

Exactly...why would the manufacturers re-invent the wheel when they can sell the higher priced commercial radios and accessories to a market share that wants to or has a need to utilizes both the amateur and non-amateur spectrum.

Also you can find commercial radios with the same capabilities as the amateur radios, to include front-panel-programming, so what else would you really need except maybe APRS...if the person is into that.

 

[PeterGV]

I agree... I'd LOVE to have a ham HT or mobile radio that has P25 capability. And I already *do* have plenty of Motorola gear with P25 capability.

Why would I want a ham HT, then?

For one, ham gear is designed for the way we use radios, and commercial P25 gear is setup for the way public safety officials use radios. It would be nice to have a P25 radio with dual-band, dual-watch/receive, and scan lists that aren't limited to 15 entries. Having a ham P25 radio would also eliminate the biggest complaint that people have about using P25 as a ham and why they don't use local P25 repeaters: "the gear is too expensive and hard to find." Of course, actually, it's neither but you DO have to know what you're doing before you drop your cash on some used radio on ebay.

It would be GREAT to have a dual-band mobile radio in my truck that could do P25. That would let me scan local police/fire, AND monitor the local repeaters at the same time. To get this same functionality, I need two XTL-5000s... and even WITH that I can only scan 15 channels at a time. So, I get to monitor EITHER police/fire OR the local repeaters on each radio.

But I suspect what ZZ0468 said is probably correct: The ham radio manufacturers don't see enough market for it, and they're probably already stretched in terms of costs to make their desired price-points. They don't need to add the expensive decoder from DVSI.

However... I suspect with so many communities moving their police/fire to digital here in the States, a ham radio manufacturer who DID offer a plug-in P25 board would probably see a reasonable demand.

Peter
K1PGV

 

[W4BOZ]

Because if something's digital and they don't understand how it works, most hams think it's illegal.

 

[CaptainEqs]

For the life of me, I could never figure out why we had to go with a Japanese ARL standard rather than our own, which would have been P25. It makes more sense as well since many hams are aslso ARES and RACES members and may have to monitor frequencies that use P25.

You think maybe it's because most of our radios are Japanese . . ?

However, Astro Sabers are half the price of D-STAR radios, and FAR more durable, and can be used across services (my one radio thus covers my needs on ham, Civil Air Patrol and county Aero SAR). If we can wean ourselves away from the bells and whistles, the equipment is available.

 

[W2NJS]

KG4IVT wrote:
"Because if something's digital and they don't understand how it works, most hams think it's illegal."

That is a sad comment but it's also just too true. Try putting a Saber on the table where some older hams are having lunch. The reaction will essentially be negative, very negative. IMHO it's based on simple ignorance.

I'm 75 and I think that digital is the wave of the future, and I own a bunch Motorola HTs, including the new APX7000.

 

[rfradioconsult]

The amount that DVSI charges for the software license for the Vocoder, adds several hundred dollars to the cost of the radio.

 

[MTS2000des]

What NJS said. One of the quirks about the seasoned ham community (and I say this, having been a ham over 25 years, got my novice when Ronald Reagan was president just starting his 2nd term!) is the resistance to change and new horizons. Ironic, as part 97 even stipulates one of our primary basis and purposes is to enhance the art of radio communication, yet many are defiant when it comes to accepting and adapting new modes of wireless.

Digital IS the future. Like it or not, it's here to stay, and either we can embrace it, enhance it, and perfect it or we will be nothing but echoes of the past. P25 phase I is pretty old by today's standard as far as codecs, in fact it was developed in the early 1990's. As such, the availability of affordable subscriber hardware is making it in more hams' reach. People have built basic repeaters out of old radios like Maxtracs that are capable of passing IMBE. There's much fun and experimentation to be had here. Isn't this one of the way ham radio is FUN, is taking old stuff, modifying it and putting it to use again? Remember when we took HT220's and downbanded the higher split VHF to 2M, changed caps, recystalled, tuned and aligned them? That's how I learned how radios work, different stages and all- the same can be had with P25 if people would just do it!

 

[N4DES]

The manufacturers of the public safety radios do not want to see a "scaled down" version of APCO25 compliant equipment on the market, even if it is only type accepted for Part97, as it will give end-uses the ability to purchase it at a substancially reduced costs once the MARS/CAP modification is completed.

Of course YMMV where is comes to the ability to survive in a real public safety incident, but if they only gave them to administrative users they could save a ton of $.

 

[brscomm]

"As to the bandsplits, I have firsthand knowledge that Motorola will only narrowband the areas of the spectrum that the FCC has mandated that it must happen. The 144-148 and 420-450 Amateur and 162 MHz. NOAA spectrum are at least 2 areas that will not be narrowbanded in future production commercial Motorola radios and will be left with a 25KHz option. We had a very detailed and lengthy thread on Batlabs on just this subject about 2 months ago."

Really?
All Part 90 licenses between 150 and 520 must be narrowbanded. The FCC will not type accept a radio for part 90 use in these bands that does 5 KHz deviation. The big manufacturers like Motorola are not going to build radios that do 5 KHz dev on ham freqs. That would require a wider IF among other mods, which cost money that would not be recouped by sales to the few hams that would use it.

 

[N4DES]

"As to the bandsplits, I have firsthand knowledge that Motorola will only narrowband the areas of the spectrum that the FCC has mandated that it must happen. The 144-148 and 420-450 Amateur and 162 MHz. NOAA spectrum are at least 2 areas that will not be narrowbanded in future production commercial Motorola radios and will be left with a 25KHz option. We had a very detailed and lengthy thread on Batlabs on just this subject about 2 months ago."

Really?
All Part 90 licenses between 150 and 520 must be narrowbanded. The FCC will not type accept a radio for part 90 use in these bands that does 5 KHz deviation. The big manufacturers like Motorola are not going to build radios that do 5 KHz dev on ham freqs. That would require a wider IF among other mods, which cost money that would not be recouped by sales to the few hams that would use it.

Motorola is programming it's CPS to allow for wideband (25KHZ/5KHz deviation) is these areas:

Part 97 Amateur
NOAA
Part 95 GMRS
Part 80 Marine

This will be for newer radios only and a specific flashcode will be programmed in all newly purchased radios or radios that have not been approved by the FCC to comply with the new requirements. Existing radios that are already purchased will not be affected, at least so I'm told. They have said that they can't and won't force existing radio owners to comply as they have no control of their migration plans or if they secure any waivers, etc.

The IF in the radios are not affected and the ham bands are already in the existing bandsplits, so it costs them zero, nada, nothing!

 

[ohiodesperado]

pertaining to the wide vs narrow part of this

Ok, KS4VT ask a question that's slightly off topic but it was ask, so I will answer.
Once a commercial radio is fully narrowbanded at the time of manufacturing, it's only narrow band.
The receive filters are actually different between wide and narrow and models that support both have both and
electronically switch between the two.Now for some guys like me that refuse to run ham gear and ONLY run commercial radios on ham (YES, even HF. I have a Harris HF) there are few options for new radios.

First option is the most obvious, and in like with the discussion of P-25 on ham. You install narrowband repeaters and run narrow all the time. If you want to run older repeaters, then you run two radios. I have several old Spectra radios on both bands that are like old friends and will always have a place in my radio console. (Yep run one of those to in the vehicle) I also run a couple Astro models that are P-25 that I use for ham and commercial communications.

As far as running a narrow repeater, I just got my tower site, but the repeater is here and waiting to be installed. It's going in as a private club only unit. Club is ALL Motorola guys that run only commercial radios so the issues of them getting in are solved. The fact it's a closed repeater solves the issues of a ham wide only attempting to get into the system. There is nothing in the rules saying I can't run narrow, and once funds are right the repeater will become P-25 and be fully narrow and digital.

Here's the thing, P-25 isn't a modulation type. It's a compliance for inneroperability on commercial. Motorola calls the modulation Astro CAI other manufactures refer to it as something else, typically C4FM. Point is that there are different flavors of "P-25" modulation the first is Phase 1 or C4FM. It's IMBE modulation, then the next is AMBE. D-Star is AMBE, or a type of it, then there are splits from that which bring TDMA into the mix like MOTOTRBO and NXDN where you time slice the transmitter and can carry two audio paths on the single channel. 7.X Astro is doing that with trunking systems. But at that level it again becomes manufacture specific and licensing is expensive. Same thing that D-star ran into. ICOM wants a cut from anyone making a D-star radio, and no one really wants to get on board with that. It's really no different with the commercial stuff. Vocoders are software based and licensed to the manufacture. They want royalties from it and no one else wants to jump in.. THe market doesn't call for it and when you are talking about a 150 dollar radio with 50 of it being a royality it's not worth it. When you are selling a commercial radio that's 5000 dollars, it's not as big a deal.