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Digital Voice for Amateur Use - Discuss use of digital voice technologies on the amateur radio bands. This is to include technologies such as VoIP, P25, DMR/TRBO, NXDN, D-STAR, etc.

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Old 07-02-2017, 2:28 PM
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Default Total DMR confusion

As usual I jumped into something that has me completely stumped. I purchased two TYT MD-380 DMR radios in hopes of monitoring the local DMR repeater. Both radios work just fine simplex and digital but when I programmed all of the talk groups into the radio for the repeater (I also ensured the correct time slots were entered) I hear nothing on the radio even though I see the signal on the radio and I hear the data screaming on an analog radio tuned to the same frequency. I know they're using one of the talk groups because once in a blue moon I'll hear one of them keying and talking then back to not being able to hear them when they drop the key and the QSO continues.

Is it possible the ham club I'm trying to monitor is using some kind of encryption? Again I have all of the Talk groups they're advertising on the DMR-MARC website and I have them assigned to the correct Time Slots. I do have an ID from DMR-MARC and it is programmed into both radios.
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Old 07-02-2017, 3:56 PM
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Encryption on Amateur radio is against the rules. My local DMR machine has "unadvertised" talk groups that are only allowed to certain groups.

My bet is that's what you're seeing. Yea, you have all the "public" groups, but there's a couple that aren't public. I can listen to them on my scanner up here, and could program them in my 380, but I'm sure people would get grumpy.
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Old 07-02-2017, 4:54 PM
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Encryption on Amateur radio is against the rules. My local DMR machine has "unadvertised" talk groups that are only allowed to certain groups.

My bet is that's what you're seeing. Yea, you have all the "public" groups, but there's a couple that aren't public. I can listen to them on my scanner up here, and could program them in my 380, but I'm sure people would get grumpy.
Okay that would make sense but even the public groups when xmitting are not coming through. NONE of them are even when I know they're being used by looking at the network usage online. For instance the North America TG shows use on the network online and I can see the corresponding xmission on the repeater here and still now audio.
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Old 07-02-2017, 5:01 PM
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Encryption on Amateur radio is against the rules. My local DMR machine has "unadvertised" talk groups that are only allowed to certain groups.

My bet is that's what you're seeing. Yea, you have all the "public" groups, but there's a couple that aren't public. I can listen to them on my scanner up here, and could program them in my 380, but I'm sure people would get grumpy.
And not trying to start an argument but unannounced talkgroups would be making an effort to obscure a communication so that would be encryption as well wouldn't it be? I know that's splitting hairs but I know these guys are xmitting on their local talkgroup because every now and then they come through on that talk group.

Main reason I'm asking is because these guys were observed on a simplex channel discussing running this machine encrypted and they were told not by a lot of the locals around here. I would like to be sure what I would be hearing before I start bringing it up with the locals who would go out of their minds on an accusation alone.
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Old 07-02-2017, 5:06 PM
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Just because a talkgroup isn't published doesn't make it obfuscation. You could still listen, all info is transmitted in the clear. Now, if they ARE encrypting a talk group or two, well, that's between them and the FCC..

I'd compare your radio with another side by side.. Mayhaps you missed one setting the other guy didn't. Compare code plugs, ask for local help.. No need to cry wolf, when the wolf isn't at the door...
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Old 07-02-2017, 5:10 PM
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Just because a talkgroup isn't published doesn't make it obfuscation. You could still listen, all info is transmitted in the clear. Now, if they ARE encrypting a talk group or two, well, that's between them and the FCC..

I'd compare your radio with another side by side.. Mayhaps you missed one setting the other guy didn't. Compare code plugs, ask for local help.. No need to cry wolf, when the wolf isn't at the door...
I'm sure the machine is encrypted. I'll just sit back and let the other guys catch wind of it and lose their minds over it. After all, they bragged about doing it before and I just happened to be the first outside that group to drop a little money on a DMR radio and discover what they're doing. It may get interesting around here when the others find out!
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Old 07-02-2017, 5:18 PM
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Okay that would make sense but even the public groups when xmitting are not coming through. NONE of them are even when I know they're being used by looking at the network usage online. For instance the North America TG shows use on the network online and I can see the corresponding xmission on the repeater here and still now audio.

You most likely have a programming problem.

If they were using encryption on a DMR MARC talkgroup, nobody else would be able to hear them and they would most likely incur the wrath of the guys who run the network.
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Old 07-02-2017, 5:25 PM
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You most likely have a programming problem.

If they were using encryption on a DMR MARC talkgroup, nobody else would be able to hear them and they would most likely incur the wrath of the guys who run the network.
I have the talk groups inputed correctly and the timeslots. Their color code is 10 and I have that set as well. I have two radios. I can key up the repeater but not talk through it. I just tried my own unannounced talk group and one they were considering (300) to no avail. I'm sure they're running encrypted. The more I think about it the more I conclude DMR is a bit complicated but only four parametes. Frequency, TG, TS, and CC.
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Old 07-02-2017, 5:28 PM
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I have the talk groups inputed correctly and the timeslots. Their color code is 10 and I have that set as well. I have two radios. I can key up the repeater but not talk through it. I just tried my own unannounced talk group and one they were considering (300) to no avail. I'm sure they're running encrypted. The more I think about it the more I conclude DMR is a bit complicated but only four parametes. Frequency, TG, TS, and CC.

That pretty much confirms the problem is on your end. Even if their radios are encrypted, you should so be able to talk from one radio to another through the repeater.
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Old 07-02-2017, 5:32 PM
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That pretty much confirms the problem is on your end. Even if their radios are encrypted, you should so be able to talk from one radio to another through the repeater.
Okay am I missing a step then? That's what I was originally asking because I have:

Entered each of their advertised TGs and TSs
I have ensured the CC is correct and it does key up the repeater.
I have the RX and TX freqs obviously correct

Anything I'm missing?

Because I can simplex all day with ANY TG I enter and on either TS....I should be able to RX this repeater and I can't. I can key it up but I can't put no audio through it....sounds to me like it is encrypted. I'm not being an A-hole but these people were heard to be discussing going encrypted...
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Old 07-02-2017, 5:47 PM
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Have you considered installing Travis Goodspeed's experimental firmware? If you enable promiscuous mode you would be able to hear all traffic regardless of whether the TG was programmed into your MD-380. Of course if they are using encryption that would be a whole other matter.
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Old 07-02-2017, 5:53 PM
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Have you considered installing Travis Goodspeed's experimental firmware? If you enable promiscuous mode you would be able to hear all traffic regardless of whether the TG was programmed into your MD-380. Of course if they are using encryption that would be a whole other matter.
Yeah I'm pretty sure of it. I just got a phone call from someone a little north of me and they're seeing the same thing. Thanks for you help though and sorry to bother ya but I like to make sure before I start shooting my mouth off. In this case I don't have to. My buddy is going to deal with it. I'm sure the local analog repeater will be quite lively next net hi hi hi!!!
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Old 07-02-2017, 6:16 PM
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Yeah I'm pretty sure of it. I just got a phone call from someone a little north of me and they're seeing the same thing. Thanks for you help though and sorry to bother ya but I like to make sure before I start shooting my mouth off. In this case I don't have to. My buddy is going to deal with it. I'm sure the local analog repeater will be quite lively next net hi hi hi!!!
Why don't you post your codeplug for others to look at? That way we can possibly rule out a programming issue.
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Old 07-02-2017, 6:19 PM
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Why don't you post your codeplug for others to look at? That way we can possibly rule out a programming issue.
Was just going to suggest the same thing..
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Old 07-02-2017, 6:19 PM
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Why don't you post your codeplug for others to look at? That way we can possibly rule out a programming issue.
Because it's just four parameters dude. You can encrypted the radio side and not encrypt what's going into the network btw. The encryption is between radios and it's plain text from the radio to whatever interface there is to the network. I am an old army signal guy you know.

Don't worry, we've already figured it out. They're using encryption. I'm not the only one seeing this over here apparently lol

Thanks.
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Old 07-02-2017, 6:22 PM
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Because it's just four parameters dude. You can encrypted the radio side and not encrypt what's going into the network btw. The encryption is between radios and it's plain text from the radio to whatever interface there is to the network. I am an old army signal guy you know.

Don't worry, we've already figured it out. They're using encryption. I'm not the only one seeing this over here apparently lol

Thanks.
Ok, your choice...and I didn't know the army used DMR (learn something new every day).
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Old 07-02-2017, 6:32 PM
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Ok, your choice...and I didn't know the army used DMR (learn something new every day).
Basic signal flow man....not DMR exclusive. The repeater can be encrypted and the signal flow to the network be Plain Text. All of the encryption is between the RADIOS. Okay?

From what I understand you don't need a code plug to operate. All you need to program is the TG, TS, CC and Freq....am I right in that sense?

Okay can anyone other than Kevin help me?
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Old 07-02-2017, 6:37 PM
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Because it's just four parameters dude. You can encrypted the radio side and not encrypt what's going into the network btw. The encryption is between radios and it's plain text from the radio to whatever interface there is to the network. I am an old army signal guy you know.
If the encryption is between the radios, than it's end to end encryption. That means the signal from the radio to the repeater is encrypted and the signal from the repeater to the network is also encrypted.

Since you've said that this is happening with the DMR-MARC network, they are most likely using Motorola radios since DMR-MARC does not allow any other manufacturer's repeater on their network.

Motorola's repeater do not have the capability of decrypting the signal before it goes into the network. Kind of hard to do that when Motorola TRBO CPS does not give you anywhere to enter the decryption key.

They could possibly be using Restricted Access to System (RAS) which keeps radios without the proper RAS key from accessing the system.

However, you should still be able to listen with your Tytera or DSDPlus or many of the other DMR radios out there.

I wish you good luck in figuring out what is wrong with your radio.
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Old 07-02-2017, 6:47 PM
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If the encryption is between the radios, than it's end to end encryption. That means the signal from the radio to the repeater is encrypted and the signal from the repeater to the network is also encrypted.

Since you've said that this is happening with the DMR-MARC network, they are most likely using Motorola radios since DMR-MARC does not allow any other manufacturer's repeater on their network.

Motorola's repeater do not have the capability of decrypting the signal before it goes into the network. Kind of hard to do that when Motorola TRBO CPS does not give you anywhere to enter the decryption key.

They could possibly be using Restricted Access to System (RAS) which keeps radios without the proper RAS key from accessing the system.

However, you should still be able to listen with your Tytera or DSDPlus or many of the other DMR radios out there.

I wish you good luck in figuring out what is wrong with your radio.
Okay that is just it. Other than the four parameters....what else could I be missing in the configuration? Because all I've seen online so far is the four parameters I've already programmed for it to work. I find it hard to believe I order two radio and both radios come broken. It is possible for these guys to activate the basic and enhanced ecryption on their radios. Once the signal is decrypted in the RX side it's PT to the network...not encrypted. 65,000 combos on basic and 1.46 E48 for Enhanced sure falls within encrption to me.

Now if there is more than the four parameters then let me know otherwise I'm going to assume along with a few other people here it's encrypted.

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Old 07-02-2017, 7:00 PM
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Basic signal flow man....not DMR exclusive. The repeater can be encrypted and the signal flow to the network be Plain Text. All of the encryption is between the RADIOS. Okay?

From what I understand you don't need a code plug to operate. All you need to program is the TG, TS, CC and Freq....am I right in that sense?

Okay can anyone other than Kevin help me?
Posting your codeplug just might help...and I promise I won't look at it.

And I would respond to your question, but you don't want my help.
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