P25 Encryption

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stafuneral

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I have noticed a lot of agencies in my area going to P25 Encryption. Is there any way to monitor these, or decrypt the communications?

I don't know too much about Encryption, and am trying to learn more on how it works.

Thanks in advance!

Jeff
 

ofd8001

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As you probably know, P25 is where a voice signal is transformed into digital, which is a series of 0's and 1's. Scanners will re-convert these 0's and 1's back into a voice signal.

However a transmitting radio using encryption will "scramble" the 0's and 1's around. Receiving radios have to have an algorithm or key on how the transmitting radio "scrambled" that digital stream.

While there are several types of encryption processes in radio use, probably the most common is AES or Advanced Encryption Standard.

The purpose of encrypting radio traffic is to keep the communications private so that "bad guys" can't listen to the "good guys".

The federal government has passed a law (18 US Code 2511) that prohibits the interception of encrypted radio communications. So even if you could come up with a way of "breaking" the encryption algorithm (the odds are very long against that), you would be in violation of federal law and could spend up to five years in prison.
 

ElroyJetson

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DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP PROGRAMMING YOUR RADIO. NO.
No. It is illegal to decrypt encrypted transmissions that you are not are the intended recipient for.

How would you do it, anyway? Trying to brute force an AES-256 encrypted signal would take, on average, longer than the expected life of the universe if all the computing power currently in existence were focused on the decoding attempt.
 

kayn1n32008

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I have noticed a lot of agencies in my area going to P25 Encryption. Is there any way to monitor these, or decrypt the communications?



I don't know too much about Encryption, and am trying to learn more on how it works.



Thanks in advance!



Jeff


So what is the point of encryption if it can easily be defeated. I mean really.

You want to monitor an agency that has decided to encrypt? Unless you decide to seek employment with the agency you wish to listen to, you are out of luck
 

jhal94

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How would you do it, anyway? Trying to brute force an AES-256 encrypted signal would take, on average, longer than the expected life of the universe if all the computing power currently in existence were focused on the decoding attempt.

^This

The only people who MIGHT be able to do it are the NSA's cryptoanaylists. and it would probably take them 20 years to do it.

Being illegal is trivial when you physically can't do something.

Data with the Enterprise-D could do it though.
 

SCPD

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One thing that always comes to mind when I read these kinds of threads is no one ever recommends "civic engagement" or "civil participation".

I travel a great deal for work and read a lot of local news and the one constant surrounding this issue is when citizens, whether they are scanner hobbyists, journalists (very broad definition these day), civil libertarians, Tea Party or transparency in government advocates come together and discuss this issue with local elected officials, nine times out of ten, a compromise is reached that benefits all.

Remember, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease".

Not interested in a discussion, since this issue must be discussed locally. Just know it is not a forgone conclusion if you are willing to involve yourself in one of the most basic principles of a democracy.
 
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DaveNF2G

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Just to be clear, it's not "P25 Encryption." P25 is an open standard for digital voice communications. Encryption is a separate thing.
 

rapidcharger

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One thing that always comes to mind when I read these kinds of threads is no one ever recommends "civic engagement" or "civil participation".

I travel a great deal for work and read a lot of local news and the one constant surrounding this issue is when citizens, whether they are scanner hobbyists, journalists (very broad definition these day), civil libertarians, Tea Party or transparency in government advocates come together and discuss this issue with local elected officials, nine times out of ten, a compromise is reached that benefits all.

Remember, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease".

Not interested in a discussion, since this issue must be discussed locally. Just know it is not a forgone conclusion if you are willing to involve yourself in one of the most basic principles of a democracy.

Nobody will speak out against it. Even if they've just watched their hobby disappear.
Getting people to show up at a meeting is like herding cats.

http://forums.radioreference.com/ge...y-fire.html?highlight=gwinnett+fire+encrypted
^^^ source
 

SCPD

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Nobody will speak out against it. Even if they've just watched their hobby disappear.
Getting people to show up at a meeting is like herding cats.

http://forums.radioreference.com/ge...y-fire.html?highlight=gwinnett+fire+encrypted
^^^ source

Thanks, new one to me. That thread proves one thing only, sending a PIO emails after the fact, won't work.

What is the one thing elected officials and their appointees want more than anything?

But I digress....

The debate has to be about selectable encryption versus strapped encryption.

Most elected officials don't know and/or care about radio communications. It's not a "sexy" issue. They take the advise of the CLEO and in some cases, the radio vendor.

If someone or a group starts asking questions about the policy, guess what, they will have to defend, make compromises to or eliminate it. They might tell you to "pound sand" but this is not what I found to be the case.

The situation I alluded to in my earlier post happened earlier this year in the Midwest and I for one was proud to see folks from different backgrounds and viewpoints, come together for a common cause. You don't see this much anymore.

In this case, the elected officials rejected the CLEO request to strap.

The key point is come together with like minded individuals, even if this is the only item you might agree on.

In the end, the question you have to ask yourself is, "How important is it to me and my community?"

Personally I have never had to confront this issue in my community. I became aware of the encryption issue over the years as I attended town/city/county council, zoning and other public meetings as a company representative and subject-matter expert on projects my employer was involved in.
 

SCPD

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My apologies.

One group I failed to mention that was involved in this case was a 100% volunteer operated and funded fire and rescue company that would have been excluded access to monitor the system as well. The Chief spoke in opposition of encryption and explained what could result from limiting his company's access to monitor LE communications.
 

SCPD

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Fwiw if the PD uses it now and upgraded pushing data across the dispatch voice channel they will encrypt it as the data would be readable and decoded by third party. A few know what I'm talking about. If your area decides to utilize this technology and equipment over a voice channel side by side you can bet and guarantee that aes 256 will be used. You can say it is a cheap route for a specific piece of equipment and lts type data. If advanced communications Inc is involved in the upgrade or install you bet this will be the cheap route offered for two different uses of data shared with voice. Seen it on conv also being done. I don't agree with it but they are doing it as cheap route all over.
 

RogerH11

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P25 encryption = generic term for Motorola's form of encryption. Best way to listen is to jam the encryption part of the radio which is probably illegal. Speaking of illegal, some say we break 3-4 laws per day so.....
 

SCPD

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I've noticed depending on where you go and how experienced or years rather officers or fire have been on duty some use different terms, even the techs. Some still will call it secure net and it is not. Some call it scrambled. Some by its name such as can you go dess. Can you go aes. In general p25 secure is adp basic like you said. But some do use that term and are running aes or des.
 

kayn1n32008

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P25 encryption = generic term for Motorola's form of encryption. Best way to listen is to jam the encryption part of the radio which is probably illegal. Speaking of illegal, some say we break 3-4 laws per day so.....
If you do not know what you are talkibg about, please do not post nonsense. P25 encryption can be a few different types, of which only one is 'Motorolas'

As to 'Jamming the encryption part' well try it and find out what happens...
 

KCoax

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I hope my tax dollars were reading those past couple posts.
 

radiomanNJ1

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P25 is not Motorola. It is an APCO standard. Radios produced by Motorola, Harris, Tait, Kenwood and others are capable of operating with the P25 standard. AES encryption is the standard that is used by all of the radios as a common form of encryption among the various brands. It is hardware based
ADP is a Motorola proprietary software format for what some have referred to as $10 encryption but it keeps the scanner listener out.
 

ElroyJetson

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DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP PROGRAMMING YOUR RADIO. NO.
Jeff, if you really want to learn more about encryption, you can search on how encryption works and find literally hundreds if not thousands of documents that will explain it at any level of detail you have the patience to try to follow.

Google it, you'll find more than enough reading material to keep you busy for years to come if you want.

You might also want to learn about how digital voice in general works, and the key to that search is "perceptual codec", "IMBE", and "AMBE", for starters.

Incidentally, Motorola's ADP is a 40 bit encryption system that breaks pretty quickly if brute forced,
but it can be argued that it's adequate for non-critical communications, like a few hams at a hamfest chatting away on an itinerant frequency so as to have some degree of privacy. (No comment on the legality of that.)
 

Ranger0034

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Encryption to the scanner hobbyist's world is like gun laws to the NRS's world. BUT there IS an NRA to fight those laws, and keep them reasonable. The cigar smoking industry has a legislative group called Cigar Rights of America who helps prevent unreasonable cigar legislation. This is what the scanner industry and what hobbyists need too ! Scanner Rights of America. In my opinion there is NO valid excuse to go full time encrypted. "Officer safety" is the number one reason that this happens. There are FAR more law abiding scanner listeners willing to help law enforcement than there are criminals out to harm them.
Lowndes County Georgia just went full time encrypted, police, fire, sheriff's etc... , again, my opinion only, they are only hurting themselves in the long run if the average scanner listener can't help prevent and fight crime by knowing what's going on around them. I have helped my local law enforcement numerous times by being a witness to and assisting them in being an extra pair of eyes.
 

SCPD

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Encryption to the scanner hobbyist's world is like gun laws to the NRS's world. BUT there IS an NRA to fight those laws, and keep them reasonable. The cigar smoking industry has a legislative group called Cigar Rights of America who helps prevent unreasonable cigar legislation. This is what the scanner industry and what hobbyists need too ! Scanner Rights of America. In my opinion there is NO valid excuse to go full time encrypted. "Officer safety" is the number one reason that this happens. There are FAR more law abiding scanner listeners willing to help law enforcement than there are criminals out to harm them.
Lowndes County Georgia just went full time encrypted, police, fire, sheriff's etc... , again, my opinion only, they are only hurting themselves in the long run if the average scanner listener can't help prevent and fight crime by knowing what's going on around them. I have helped my local law enforcement numerous times by being a witness to and assisting them in being an extra pair of eyes.

You hear the "if only we had" a group like the NRA for petty much every cause under the sun.

The reason the NRA is so successful, it's not because of money, it's because they have one of the most passionate groups of members you will ever find. NRA members don't just send a check and then "phone it in". They hold the elected and appointed officials accountable. NRA members are calling, emailing, attending ever public meeting held, utilizing social media and above all else being the "squeaky wheel".

This is what is sorely lacking in the radio scanning hobby. I just did a quick search here and could not find one thread where someone stated, "My community just encrypted their public safety communications and I am mad as hell and I am not going to take this laying down". Never any mention of meeting or even trying to meet with the folks who made the decision or attending open public meetings, budget hearings and the like and speaking their mind. No social media campaigns.

What do you find if you do this search? Whining and suggestions of illegal tactics.

Let's be honest, encryption at the local or even state level is never going to be a topic for the mainstream media, it is a local issue and even then one most, including some elected and appointed officials care little about. This apathy is your advantage.

In all the cases that I have just happen to stumble upon in my travels for work, EVERY time a victory occurs for the scanner hobbyist it is because they and another like minded individuals and organizations came together and took the NRA's "take no prisoners" approach. Some times the result is small, just dispatch is in the "clear" and other times, like the case I mentioned earlier in this thread, a greater victory is had.

But getting back to your original point, sure, I agree that the scanner manufacturers, the retailers/dealers who profit from scanner sales and even sites like Radio Reference should become more involved in this issue but at the end of the day unless the scanner hobbyists are willing to do the grassroots legwork on the local level, it won't matter how much money is thrown at the issue or how powerful a lobby you have.
 
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