Newbie to the hobbie

[Jackets]

Thought i'd introduce myself and get a few questions answered at the same time.

My real name is Joe, found this place while looking for a forum with a format i liked/am used to.

Plan to take the Canadian basic test net time it is offer once may hits as i am currently studying.

I have taken the IC pretest and received 67/100 before i started hamstudy.com so I'm hopeful to get a pretty decent mark.

I work for a living as a welder/fabricator, but years ago i also took and passed the MECP basic and first class test passing both, and also passing the first level of the CEDIA certification. Ended up hating it, do basic stuff for friends and my own.

My main question is, where i will be setting up Shack is, an all steel building built before i was born, and to the best of my knowledge has never been struck by lightning. Now i intend to bury a good ground on one side of the building to ground the building itself, and on the other side to do the same to the equipment. This building has no windows, only pair of doors. Will i need to take steps other then feedline isolation and protections at the entry point to prevent unwanted interference?

Question 2, for an antenna i'm leaning towards a longwire multiband setup, i'd like to build first go around to handle the power limit i'm allowed, how heavy a gauge of copper wire will i need to go? i've seen recommendations from 20ga to 12ga that's a serious difference in both capacity and strength under load (tension). Thoughts?


Anyways off to dinner looking forward to your input, thanks all
Joe

 

[jondainty]

Question 2, for an antenna i'm leaning towards a longwire multiband setup, i'd like to build first go around to handle the power limit i'm allowed, how heavy a gauge of copper wire will i need to go? i've seen recommendations from 20ga to 12ga that's a serious difference in both capacity and strength under load (tension). Thoughts?

Joe

I've been at this wire antenna thing since 1979, and my biggest concern has been getting my dipoles (most-used type for me) securely up in the air. Whether a tree or a building was the intended resting place, I've used 12-gauge or 14 for most of my working antennas. 20 seems a bit light (especially in ice or high winds, and 10 was always heavy for my applications.

Power handling still points toward 12-gauge for most applications, or 14 if you think it will handle the power you're going to use. Except at Yokosuka, Japan, I never used more than 1,000 watts output, and that was on a very nice Navy log periodic antenna. At home, my radios never exceeded the manufacturer's 100-watt installed limit, so I didn't have to worry about heavy power applications.

You're going to enjoy this hobby, Joe.

 

[SCPD]

I wish you good luck on your exam, Jackets

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you are concerned with interference as the feed lines enter your building. If it is a simple coax run, then passing it thru a wall should be fine- just use a good quality lightning suppressor somewhere in the arrangement. If you are planning to use an open wire feed line, then this presents a bit of a challenge- and as you are starting off in the hobby, I would not recommend it.

I personally like ground mounted verticals- I long ago stopped climbing things to put up antennas. For HF the propagation of a ground mounted vertical is superior to any low dipole, and multi-band ones (though I like single band ones myself) can be constructed, or purchased at quite reasonable costs. Nothing is going to stop a direct lightning bolt from taking everything out, but direct hits are rare- its the side splatter and induced spikes that do the most damage. A ground mounted vertical, with an arrestor at its base, plus a ground rod and radials- --the antenna placed a distance from your station-- I think will offer you a better set up than a dipole. But please remember, I like verticals.
If comes to a dipole, just make it as sturdy and as mechanically sound as you can.. like us in the Rockies, you Canadians know what a blizzard can do ! A copy of the ARRL Antenna Book is a great place to learn the pro's and con of different antennas. Its got a lot of good information, and though quite technical, the authors write it in a readable style. I have always stressed,-- like *forever*-- if you approach your antenna like a scientist, you will stand heads above the other hams.
Again, good luck !
.........................................CF

 

[wyShack]

If you are adding a ground rod, make sure to bond the two rods together- ground potential rise can ruin a radio. I would suggest using 12 gauge wire or larger for mechanical strength(stranded). If you can find it, and are so inclined, Copperweld cable is copper over a steel core for strength.

 

[Token]

Question 2, for an antenna i'm leaning towards a longwire multiband setup, i'd like to build first go around to handle the power limit i'm allowed, how heavy a gauge of copper wire will i need to go? i've seen recommendations from 20ga to 12ga that's a serious difference in both capacity and strength under load (tension). Thoughts?

A little terminology nit to pick here. A "longwire" is not a longwire unless it is more than one wavelength long at the lowest frequency of use. Unfortunately it has become pretty common, and incorrect, practice to call any end fed wire antenna a long wire.

Wire antennas come in multiple shapes, sizes, and functions. Regardless of receiver or transceiver use the basics remain the same. A few of the more common wire antenna types are below.

Random wires are just that, a random length of wire, typically fed at one end. To use with a transmitter they pretty much require an antenna tuner.

Long wire is an antenna which is over one wavelength long at the lowest frequency intended to be used and typically end fed. The length of this wire gives it specific directional characteristics that are different from a random wire or a shorter end fed wire.

Dipoles are wire antennas with two pieces of wire, instead of one. It can be a half wave dipole (typically the simplest to use), an off center feed dipole, etc. For transmit they often can be used without a tuner for specific bands of design. An Inverted V antenna is a dipole with the ends pulled down so that the wire legs form an inverted V. Dipoles that are longer than half a wavelength long can develop some very usable directional qualities. A V Beam is a directional dipole with electrically long legs (typically three quarter wavelength or longer each), the legs form a horizontal V patter pointed in the direction of interest. This builds on the same theory as the Longwire antenna. The Rhombic antenna takes this basic premise a few steps further.

Wire antennas can be simple to build and use, and so they can promote experimentation.

As for 12 or 20 ga wire, if it will mechanically support itself stretched over the lengths you want there is no reason you can't use any convenient size wire. The wire need not be bare, it can be insulated, this makes no difference to the antenna. However soft wire tends to stretch when you make antennas with it, causing it to mechanically sag and both mechanically and electrically lengthen, changing the tuning of the antenna, so hard drawn bare wire is a suggested material for trouble free, long lasting, wire antennas. But I have built many wire antennas out of light wire, like 18/1 bare copper stranded grounding wire, which you can get for under $20 for 250 feet at home improvement stores.

T!

 

[Jackets]

I wish you good luck on your exam, Jackets

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you are concerned with interference as the feed lines enter your building. If it is a simple coax run, then passing it thru a wall should be fine- just use a good quality lightning suppressor somewhere in the arrangement. If you are planning to use an open wire feed line, then this presents a bit of a challenge- and as you are starting off in the hobby, I would not recommend it.........................................CF

Just the concern on it being all metal, (sides roof and doors)

If you are adding a ground rod, make sure to bond the two rods together- ground potential rise can ruin a radio. I would suggest using 12 gauge wire or larger for mechanical strength(stranded). If you can find it, and are so inclined, Copperweld cable is copper over a steel core for strength.

So a good single ground sounds like the best option then.

Copperweld Cable, Are you refering to "mig wire, or wirefeed welder wire" (lots of names depending on area) This i have access to lots of .035 and .045.

A little terminology nit to pick here. A "longwire" is not a longwire unless it is more than one wavelength long at the lowest frequency of use. Unfortunately it has become pretty common, and incorrect, practice to call any end fed wire antenna a long wire.
...........

As for 12 or 20 ga wire, if it will mechanically support itself stretched over the lengths you want there is no reason you can't use any convenient size wire. The wire need not be bare, it can be insulated, this makes no difference to the antenna. However soft wire tends to stretch when you make antennas with it, causing it to mechanically sag and both mechanically and electrically lengthen, changing the tuning of the antenna, so hard drawn bare wire is a suggested material for trouble free, long lasting, wire antennas. But I have built many wire antennas out of light wire, like 18/1 bare copper stranded grounding wire, which you can get for under $20 for 250 feet at home improvement stores.

T!

Thanks Everyone for the input, i will defiantly use this as a starting point for more research and reading material


Depending on heading i can setup temporary up to 2400' long, and with permission up to 5800' long. although at 5800' i see that being a pain to raise to a "safe" height.


Cheers
Joe

 

[wyShack]

Jackets-Now I am learning (thanks) -I always used Copperweld for antennas as it did not stretch much but when I Googled it, one of its uses does seem to be welding. Here in the US the NEC has some minimum gauge for antennas (seem to remember 12) but up there you would have to check local codes.

Real longwire antennas are directional off the end-more and more as the length (in wavelengths) goes up. I would suggest a dipole for each band or something like a G5RV or even a T2FD so you can work stations all over-not sure what bands you will be authorized for but for a dipole the overall length (in feet) is 468 divided by the frequency in Mhz. Homemade antennas can become a hobby by themselves -enjoy.

73

 

[Jackets]

The wire i have access to is of fairly small gauge (.035" and .045") roughly 20-21 and 18-19 Gauge.

To get up around the 12 mark i'd have to hunt down a spool of 1/16" as that would be between 10-11 Gauge. still fairly cheep compared to smaller spools (500' and under) of insulated gauge wire.

Cheers

 

[SCPD]

The CopperWeld referred to is a copper plated hard-drawn steel wire. The large guage (#10?) was (is still?) used for open wire telephone and telegraph lines--- you may still see some of them along side railroad tracks. The stuff is very tough and lasts forever- that's why some of those lines are still up a century later.
As far as the coax passing into a metal building, you actually have a great shielding setup-- Place your lightning arrestor at the enterance, bond it to the metal building. I would suggest you Goggle the IEEE guidelines (IEEE Guide for Surge Protection of Equipment)-- It is downloadable, about 50 pages, written in a readable style, and covers everything.

And up to a 2km's to run an antenna!--Wow--- you are talking a ++Long !++ antenna, but if you are into the exotic's, look at the Beverage design...but just look--- it is Very highly directional, low noise, but lousy for transmitting... a specialty receiving antenna--- I don't recommend it to start out with.

................................CF

 

[Jackets]

Ahh makes a little more sense on the Copperweld wire i doubt it would weld well lol

Off to read the IEEE stuff

 

[Token]

Depending on heading i can setup temporary up to 2400' long, and with permission up to 5800' long. although at 5800' i see that being a pain to raise to a "safe" height.

The optimal size for an antenna (and height) is determined by frequency. The lower the frequency the longer the antenna needs to be and the higher it needs to be for optimal performance. In general for any ham application you would seldom talk in terms of half a mile or more long antennas.

For example, the half wave dipole I mentioned in my first post to this thread. The basic formula to determine approximate length is 468/f(MHz)=length(feet). So for a 160 meter band half wave dipole you would only be talking a little less than 257 feet total length. And a 40 meter band half wave is only ~66 feet total length.

A long wire antenna for 160 meters would be over 525 feet, and a traditional beverage would be something more than that. A 4 wavelength beverage would be approaching your 2400 foot mark, and that would be a very uncommon antenna.

So really you have to define what you want to do, what frequency ranges you want to work in, and then you can start to decide what antenna (or antennas) might fit your needs. There is no one antenna that does everything equally well. It is not uncommon, if a person has the physical room, to have multiple antennas to cover the HF range. Some optimized for one band or the other, some for specific directions of interest, etc.

Speaking of the HF range, you have not said what bands you want to work on. A lot of the responses here have been aimed at HF antennas, vs VHF or UHF. This is because wire antennas (what you asked about) are most often used in the HF range, and seldom in the VHF/UHF range. You did say you were after the Canadian Basic. As I understand it that means you cannot have HF unless you score more than 80% on the test, below that score is 30 MHz and up (VHF/UHF) only.

T!

 

[N4GIX]

If you have that much room you could put up a 'steerable' rhombic antenna system.

 

[Jackets]

Quite the read of the various IEEE publications, but very informative.

I intend to setup directly into 2M/70CM as it is a cheap start. While setting up to listen to the HF bands Initially While figuring out where i'd like to play in time.

Being of the tech age data is somewhat of an interest as i slowly read more and sort what i need. But just straight voice is too.

I don't want to commit to a huge permanent antenna setup as i may end up having to move in 2 years once my other half finishes school (job availability dependent)

Mainly why i am reading about simpler wire antenna's for now. As they will be the most use and cheapest to learn on for me. Although i always have my eyes open for cheap tower sections. going rate here for used is $100/10FT

Anyways Cheers all, thanks for all the input
Joe

Oh, Happened on W8JI, lots to read there and from what i have gleaned posted about him its all good info.

 

[Token]

If you have that much room you could put up a 'steerable' rhombic antenna system.

What makes that Rhombic in your image steerable? To me it just looks like a pair of stacked Rhombics.

Here I use 3 Rhombics, each pointed in a different direction. These are for receive only in my application, although I could transmit via them if I really wanted to. Further, for each Rhombic I have selectable terminations. I can run each terminated, making it monodirectional, I can run each unterminated, making each bidirectional, and I can run each shorted, making each roughly omnidirectional as a large loop.

My Rhombics are not quite optimally high, they could be a bit higher, and being a little limited in land my longest is only 450 feet apex to apex.

T!

 

[N4GIX]

I never said that picture was a steerable rhombic. It was just a nice picture I found that showed a rhombic antenna. :wink:

I was actually looking for the actual steerable rhombic the FCC had at their Kingsville, TX monitoring station, but there don't seem to be any. I had some photos I'd taken from the top of one of my 500' towers close to their antenna farm, but they seem to have gotten misplaced over the decades...

 

[Jackets]

Don't fret, i like pictures almost as much as i like to read.

Gives me a point to start looking for info

 

[KN4J]

In the number of years I have been reading this forum, three posters seem to stand above all others in relevant and bankable information: Token, prcguy, and k7mem. Others do a fantastic job as well, but I appeal to you to take heed of their suggestions when they offer it. I promise, you can't go wrong.

Saying that, I would suggest the ARRL Antenna Book, as has been mentioned somewhere above. It's simply indispensable. You might also consider the ARRL Operating Manual and/or the ARRL Handbook For Radio Communications .As a bundle, they can be costly, but it's an expense that is easily justified.

In regards to W8JI: he is well known in the hobby. There are some who claim he refuses to be wrong regardless of what data is presented to him, but overall, I find his information very reliable.

If you happen to come across anything by L.B. Cebik in your journey on the 'net, download it and save it. When he passed away, I believe his webpage became a paid subscription affair, but there is still some good information out there to be found for free.

Lastly, consider what you are interested in. I'm all about HF and I knew that going into the hobby, therefore I built my station accordingly. Try to be patient and learn all you can before you purchase. You'll be glad you did.

Good luck with your endeavors!

 

[Jackets]

Just a quick update, just finished taking the basic exam, passing at 84%.

Now to wait for a call sign
Cheers all
Joe


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[K5MPH]

Cograts on passing your test now the real fun begins,welcome to the Hobby......

 

[reconrider8]

Gratz KM4TCM