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GMRS / FRS - Discussions related to GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service) and FRS (Family Radio Service) communications

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Old 03-30-2018, 1:43 PM
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Default Tera TR-505 question

I recently purchased this radio which piqued my interest in HAM radio. I am taking the test next month and excited to learn more about everything. After researching my new walkie talkies I noticed that its FCC grant is for approximately 1.1W in the UHF GMRS frequencies. I have read several posts in these forums that say this radio is not to exceed it's 1.1W grant by by the FCC. I just called Powerwerx and asked if I am allowed to use 5W (I'm licensed). They said as long as I have a license, I'm allowed to use 5W with the TR-505. Is that true though? Their website says "Full 4 watts of transmit power for increased range and coverage area." It doesn't mention 5W.
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Old 03-30-2018, 2:35 PM
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If you have a GMRS license and if the radio is FCC certified for GMRS (part 95A) then the power (and bandwidth) you are allowed to use depends on the GMRS frequency. Some frequencies allow 50 W and others are restricted to 5 or 0.5 W.
See the chart and links to FCC rules at https://wiki.radioreference.com/inde..._channel_chart
The radio documentation should specify what the power output is at different frequencies and power settings.
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Old 03-30-2018, 2:40 PM
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A rating of 4 watts RF output is common for a UHF handheld; VHF models are typically rated at 5 watts.

- John
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Old 03-31-2018, 2:15 AM
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The dealer is feeding you BS.

You are limited by the certification of the radio which is a smidgen over 1 watt. Why? Probably because the radiation of harmonics or other out of band signals will not pass FCC regulations above that power level. Take note also the emission designator 10K3F3E is barely a narrowband emission. Not good for GMRS where the norm is wide 16K0F3E.

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Old 03-31-2018, 8:07 AM
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Originally Posted by nd5y View Post
If you have a GMRS license and if the radio is FCC certified for GMRS (part 95A) then the power (and bandwidth) you are allowed to use depends on the GMRS frequency.
The radio is certified under the GMRS. See https://fccid.io/2ACK8TR505D The grant says it's power output is approximately 1.1W. The programming software for this radio allows up to 4 Watts according to their website. So what you're saying, it doesn't matter if their FCC grant just states 1.1W, I can use 5 watts on their radio?

I can just 'program' it and get the full 4 watts? Why isn't 4 watts in the FCC grant, and if I use 4 watts, is that

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The dealer is feeding you BS.

You are limited by the certification of the radio which is a smidgen over 1 watt. Why? Probably because the radiation of harmonics or other out of band signals will not pass FCC regulations above that power level. Take note also the emission designator 10K3F3E is barely a narrowband emission. Not good for GMRS where the norm is wide 16K0F3E.

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This is my concern. I'm new to all of this. We are going on a fishing trip to a large lake in 6 weeks and I decided to get my GMRS license and purchase some radios. I started to become real interested, so much so that now I contacted our local HAM club and scheduled a test! Well, after doing more research, I have mixed feelings about these radios I purchased now. I am reading posts like yours RFI-EMI-GUY saying that this radio is not 'legal' for full GMRS power. If this is true, I will be SEETHING mad about it.

Now on the other hand, it does seem like a good radio. I was able to program in the local repeater frequencies and listen to the locals talking, it sounds like a lot of fun and I can't wait to get my license to check in. I did a test with my wife and was able to get over 2 miles in the city on GMRS high power. I'm torn.
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Old 03-31-2018, 8:52 AM
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Some CCRs (Cheap Chinese Radios), the few that actually have FCC certification, have strange power outputs and emission designators that don't make sense compared to published specs listed on the FCC grant.

The only way to tell exactly what a particular radio is doing is to have somebody with the necessary test equipment and knowledge test the radio.

I don't know anything about TERA radios or their programming software but I doubt that the power output is programmable. It probably puts out 1 W on low power and either 4 or 5 W on high power and you can't adjust it beyond that.

According to TERA and Powerwerx web sites the radio only operates on the 462 MHz GMRS frequencies so you can use 5 W or less on all of those.
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Old 03-31-2018, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by nd5y View Post
Some CCRs (Cheap Chinese Radios), the few that actually have FCC certification, have strange power outputs and emission designators that don't make sense compared to published specs listed on the FCC grant.

The only way to tell exactly what a particular radio is doing is to have somebody with the necessary test equipment and knowledge test the radio.

I don't know anything about TERA radios or their programming software but I doubt that the power output is programmable. It probably puts out 1 W on low power and either 4 or 5 W on high power and you can't adjust it beyond that.

According to TERA and Powerwerx web sites the radio only operates on the 462 MHz GMRS frequencies so you can use 5 W or less on all of those.
The Tera software just has high and low power settings for VHF and UHF.

I do have an update on the TR-505 performance. I purchased a brand new Yaesu FT-60R yesterday after visiting a HAM shop while on business in Atlanta, they talked me out of the TERA590, and comparing the receive on a weak local 2m repeater in Colorado where I live, the Tera TR-505 is beating it... The Tera is noticeably clearer. I'm hearing a lot of noise in the background and often the signal breaks up with the Yaesu, the Tera has noticeably less background audio noise and has been holding the signal very well. I am using a Diamond SRH77CA antenna on the FT-60r and the high gain 15" antenna from Powerwerx on the TR-505. So *shrug*
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Old 07-05-2018, 9:13 PM
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I'm a TERA Dealer (I started BetterSafeRadio because of this radio) and just wanted to clear up some dis-info/confusion here:

Despite what some people have said, TERA is not "feeding you BS." The TR-505 puts out 4W on UHF and 5W on VHF. When programmed for legal MURS use, it does 2W on VHF. When programmed for legal GMRS use, it does 1+W on low power and 4W on high power.

The TR-505 has FCC dual-certification, so it can be operated on GMRS or MURS (Part 95E or Part 95J), just not legally both at the same time. Of course, it can also be used for Amateur/Ham. I've been told that the FCC is "aware" of this radio and its dual certification, and has no problem with it.

It's the same commercial-grade hardware as the TERA TR-500 and essentially the same guts as the TR-590, minus the keypad and FM radio features. It has great audio, has an IP54 rating, and can take quite a bit of abuse.

Yes, the FCC grant power listing, as with many other radios, is erroneous, but this radio puts out close (+/-) to what I've stated here, and is legal to use as such.

Don't listen to the naysayers here that dog this radio based on the FCC grant details or errors printed in the manual. You WILL get great reports while using this radio, and I have hundreds of these in the field that have been going strong for 2 years now, with only a few having any problems. These are solid, easy to use, sound great, have a bunch of accessories available (all interchangeable with the TR-590), and have great support and several pre-programming options (only from BSR). Again, these radios are why I started my company, not the other way around.

I hope this helps a bit.

Cheers!
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Old 07-05-2018, 9:52 PM
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Originally Posted by K6LED View Post
I'm a TERA Dealer
I'm a TERA owner

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Originally Posted by K6LED View Post
When programmed for legal GMRS use, it does 1+W on low power and 4W on high power. Yes, the FCC grant power listing, as with many other radios, is erroneous, but this radio puts out close (+/-) to what I've stated here, and is legal to use as such.
Are you sure it's legal to use this radio at 4W? Did you consult with a lawyer? I'm no lawyer, but I can see this radio isn't certified for 4W use. Did your lawyer say it's grant is erroneous? And if it is erroneous, then why isn't TERA having it corrected?

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Don't listen to the naysayers here that dog this radio based on the FCC grant details or errors printed in the manual. You WILL get great reports while using this radio
If I'm a naysayer because TERA is relying on gray area legal marketing, then fine. TERA should play by the rules like all other radio manufacturers. Without a license grant @ 4W, it shouldn't be allowed to be programmed at that level and cheat the rules like other radio manufacturers who actually get the 4W license grant.

Yes, maybe I will get great reports with this radio, but at what cost? It wasn't granted 4W power output for who knows why? Are there high levels of spurious harmonics that get transmitted with the possibly illegal 4W GMRS power output? Why can't TERA play by the rules? If TERA doesn't want naysayers to come in and question their grant, they should play by the rules like Kenwood, Yaesu, etc...

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Originally Posted by K6LED View Post
The TR-505 has FCC dual-certification, so it can be operated on GMRS or MURS (Part 95E or Part 95J), just not legally both at the same time.
How come this isn't on the for sale page? And if this is not legal, how come the radio can be programmed with GMRS and MURS at the same time?
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:24 PM
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Dredging up past posts here... maybe something has changed.

06-04-2016, 5:54 AM
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Just FYI, I think they had the radio locked on low power for the FCC tests. It definitely puts out 4W on UHF, 5W on VHF (on hi power), and I've seen guys report that it is actually doing a bit more than that. ERP, of course, is a bit lower, which keeps it under the limits, esp. on low-power (2W VHF and 1W UHF, hence the 1.1W on the FCC test).

I know I can ping repeaters all the way across SoCal from inside my house with the rubber duckie, so it gets the job done.

And

06-04-2016, 4:35 PM
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Originally Posted by gewecke View Post
"1I know this is a bit dated but, this may have been merely a typo by Powerwerx since the Tr505 is merely a 16 channel Gmrs Repeater/simplex radio with no Vhf abilities, according to the specs on their website today. . 73, n9zas
Actually, if you look closely, they still mention that it's a dual-band radio, but yeah, the factory configuration is just as a GMRS."

"I don't think they will last long in this configuration - I know they're working on a way to make the "type-acceptance" less ambiguous.

Until then, I'm grabbing as many as I can (and keeping a pile for myself)."

Sounds very reassuring on its legality.

For reference https://forums.radioreference.com/gm...d-radio-3.html
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Old 07-06-2018, 1:57 AM
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Wow, so much anger and so many assumptions and negativity.

It seems like you guys don't understand some things about radios. Here are a few points:

- MANY radios, yes, even Motorola's, have some bad FCC grant info on power levels, and even on the Part designations. Don't ask me why - maybe they are data entry errors, but there are many examples of this, and it doesn't necessarily mean the radios can't use any power above the listed amount, because MANY of them do. If there was some major controversy over this, you would think the FCC would be pulling certs right and left, but they don't, and they haven't pulled the TR-505 like they did to the AnyTone GMRS/MURS, because the TERA grant passed muster. I'm not sure why you're not okay with it, since they are. Do you want to be the radio police?

- Play by the rules like all other radio manufacturers? HAHAHAHA That's a good one. All me, what rules are they breaking? BTW, I'm not TERA, and I never said that they didn't want naysayers. I don't speak for them.

- Re the GMRS and MURS use at the same time... well, MY site does say that! You'll have to ask TERA why their's doesn't, but they only sell the radio configured for GMRS. Why is this getting your panties in a bunch though? Have you seen how the racing enthusiast pages market their radios, and how they just program them willy-nilly and NEVER say that you even need a license? Shouldn't you be saving some of your outrage for the horrors that TERA is befalling on society for the sites that are actually openly violating the rules?

Seriously? You don't know that the same hardware can have multiple grants? There are plenty of radios that have Part 90 and Part 95 grants (including Kenwoods and Motorolas, etc.), and you can program whatever you want into them, but by your interpretation of the FCC rules, they would all be illegal, eh?

It's the ability for the user to front-panel program a radio for multiple bands or say to change power to a level that exceeds the current band's regulations, that would make it not type-accepted, not the ability for the hardware itself to be capable of being programmed such a way. If that was the case, hardly any radios would be legal to use. You just seem to be making a big deal about something that isn't. DO you work for a competitor or something?

cmjonesinc: I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but when I discovered these radios, and before I understood the dual certification and the details surrounding such, I was confused also, especially as the AnyTone GMRS/MURS was being taken down (although for a different reason).

As well, TERA was indeed planning on retiring the radio, and in the course of looking into designing a new GMRS/MURS radio that could be set to boot up as GMRS or MURS (not both at the same time), apparently the TR-505 was discussed with the FCC, which is how we know that they are okay with the current grant and radio configuration. At about that same time, I started selling the radios and TERA decided to do another run of them (and yet another since then, with new calibration for MURS at my request - the original was only 1W on VHF, now they are 2W).

Again, if it's good with the FCC, I'm not sure why it isn't with you guys. It's great having a radio you can reprogram and use on another band. You know, like the Part 90/95 commercial radios that exist and have been around for many years without any problems. Are you grinding Motorola and Kenwood for this? How about all the ham radios that can be unlocked for use on GMRS/MURS - you know, the ones really ruining the marketplace? Shouldn't those be programmatically limited to not be able to transmit on those bands?

Anyway, cast all the doubts you want - I was just trying to help clear up a few misconceptions and questions. Yes, it's a very unique radio. Yes, so far it's 100% legal after about 3 years on the market, and until the FCC deems it not, shouldn't we be worrying more about the actually crappy import radios that don't bother to get any kind of certification at all, and which have been tested and shown to have potentially dangerous spurious radiation (Baofeng)?

RogueSteward: Since you own a 505, I trust that you haven't ever transmitted with it, right? Have you put it on an RF analyzer to check the harmonics? I'd love to see it.
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Old 07-06-2018, 12:41 PM
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That is funny that you asked if I am a competitor. No I'm not, but I'll take that as a compliment. I'm just your average tech savvy responsible radio operator consumer. Was I upset that after purchasing the radio finding out that the GMRS grant wasn't 4W as claimed, YES. I guess I'm just the type of guy that if someone advertises and sells me a product advertised as 4W or 5W and it's really not even certified for it, it upsets me. So K6LED, you're claiming that there are many erroneous FCC grants and the TERA just has an erroneous grant and so don't worry about it, everything is kosher. That still doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies...

That being said, the radio does seem to work ok for me. I have taken it to several camping and fishing and boating trips and it seems to work fine. I pretty much only use it on MURS on low power because it seems to do everything I need at that setting. Right now I have the stubby duck on them and my wife and I use them every day because my cave is on the opposite side of the house from her craft room.

I own an airspy receiver. It has an spectrum analyzer, so I actually can test this radio and view harmonics compared to a few Yaesu's and Kenwood which I also now own. Challenge accepted!
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Old 07-06-2018, 1:13 PM
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No, I wasn't suggesting that the grant discrepancy should make you feel warm and fuzzy or that everything is "kosher," but rather trying to point out that this seems to be a somewhat common problem, and so I tend to just go with the overall Part certification, not the power ratings, especially for these low-power handhelds. If it passed FCC muster to get the Part certification at all, then I, and I think most people, are fine using it within those guidelines.

Apparently, you feel the same way, even though you're claiming to not. If you were really worried about not using a radio that has a potentially fraudulent certification, or whatever it is you've been suggesting, then you wouldn't be using the radio at all, let alone every day!

Further, the fact that you're casting doubt on the radio's spectral purity without having tested it, just seems hypocritical, at best. Surely you wouldn't want to use a radio that you think is so fringe in terms of compliance and safety, but yet you do, so I guess you're more interested in arguing about it than actually living up to the ideals that you're trying to hold TERA to. Seems wildly contradictory, at least to me.

I'd love to see the results of your Airspy testing.
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Old 07-06-2018, 2:16 PM
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Originally Posted by K6LED View Post
No, I wasn't suggesting that the grant discrepancy should make you feel warm and fuzzy or that everything is "kosher," but rather trying to point out that this seems to be a somewhat common problem, and so I tend to just go with the overall Part certification, not the power ratings, especially for these low-power handhelds. If it passed FCC muster to get the Part certification at all, then I, and I think most people, are fine using it within those guidelines.

Apparently, you feel the same way, even though you're claiming to not. If you were really worried about not using a radio that has a potentially fraudulent certification, or whatever it is you've been suggesting, then you wouldn't be using the radio at all, let alone every day!

Further, the fact that you're casting doubt on the radio's spectral purity without having tested it, just seems hypocritical, at best. Surely you wouldn't want to use a radio that you think is so fringe in terms of compliance and safety, but yet you do, so I guess you're more interested in arguing about it than actually living up to the ideals that you're trying to hold TERA to. Seems wildly contradictory, at least to me.

I'd love to see the results of your Airspy testing.
Read my posts, I don't use it out of it's certification... MURS low power and GMRS low power is what the TR-505 is certified for. I have a right to cast doubts on the performance of the TR-505 operating at high power because well, it hasn't been certified for that use! But according to you, a seller, the grant is erroneous, so don't worry about it!
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Old 07-06-2018, 2:34 PM
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Read my posts, I don't use it out of it's certification... MURS low power and GMRS low power is what the TR-505 is certified for. I have a right to cast doubts on the performance of the TR-505 operating at high power because well, it hasn't been certified for that use! But according to you, a seller, the grant is erroneous, so don't worry about it!
No, I did not say the grant was erroneous, I said the power levels indicated in the grant were, and that I've seen this many times before.

My point about you using the radio (at all), is that you've cast so many doubts about the legality of the very grant itself, yet you seem fine to use the radio anyway with what may or may not be (in your eyes) legitimate or accurate specifications, and with questionable performance. It just seems a bit hypocritical to me, that's all, but carry on and I'm glad you're enjoying the use of the radio on a daily basis. It's a solid, reliable radio.
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Old 07-06-2018, 2:58 PM
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If it passed FCC muster to get the Part certification at all, then I, and I think most people, are fine using it within those guidelines.
It's not the FCC that passes muster on these things.

The way it's set up is that the individual manufacturers get to use a testing laboratory of their choice. The manufacturer takes the test results and applies for type acceptance from the FCC. If the FCC looks at the documentation and sees that it's all complete, then they grant the certification.

So, the FCC takes the word of the manufacturer and the testing laboratory and does not confirmation the results on their own. It's up to the manufacturer and lab to be truthful.

If the manufacturer only applied for type certification at the lower power level, and that's what the FCC made the grant for, then that's what it is. Even with programming software, the end user taking it outside what the grant allows violates the FCC certification.

The FCC didn't make the mistake, the manufacturer did. If they want it fixed, then they can apply to get the grant updated. Until they do, the existing type certification is the only valid one.

https://www.fcc.gov/engineering-tech...-authorization
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Old 07-06-2018, 3:08 PM
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Here are the results of a test I just ran. TR-505 vs Yaesu FT-60R @ 442.0 MHz and with both units operating at max power. It does appear there are additional harmonics the TR-505 are transmitting that aren't apparent on the Yaesu...
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Old 07-06-2018, 3:54 PM
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Originally Posted by K6LED View Post
No, I wasn't suggesting that the grant discrepancy should make you feel warm and fuzzy or that everything is "kosher," but rather trying to point out that this seems to be a somewhat common problem, and so I tend to just go with the overall Part certification, not the power ratings, especially for these low-power handhelds. If it passed FCC muster to get the Part certification at all, then I, and I think most people, are fine using it within those guidelines.

Apparently, you feel the same way, even though you're claiming to not. If you were really worried about not using a radio that has a potentially fraudulent certification, or whatever it is you've been suggesting, then you wouldn't be using the radio at all, let alone every day!

Further, the fact that you're casting doubt on the radio's spectral purity without having tested it, just seems hypocritical, at best. Surely you wouldn't want to use a radio that you think is so fringe in terms of compliance and safety, but yet you do, so I guess you're more interested in arguing about it than actually living up to the ideals that you're trying to hold TERA to. Seems wildly contradictory, at least to me.

I'd love to see the results of your Airspy testing.
So with this logic if someone built a radio and has it certified at 2 watts of power but it was capable of running 120 watts it would be okay. The complaint is they certified it for lower power and make it very simple to program higher in their software that's being sold by them. Could it be because it would pass on low power but harmonics and other issues showed up on high power? Not saying RogueSteward is using the same equipment as the lab that did the certification but obviously there's something going on here. Shame yaesu went through of manufacturing their radio correctly and having it test appropriately. Could have save a pile of cash otherwise.
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Old 07-06-2018, 6:04 PM
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Take it for what it is. It is a cheap radio. Seriously! Let it go. It makes no sense to continue arguing.

If you are so unhappy with it, sell it on ebay with a small loss, buy Motorola, and be happy again.
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Old 07-06-2018, 6:32 PM
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Well welcome to the forums ozdsd. Hopefully he will return it and take one more junk radio off the band. If no one ever complains about all these imports people are just going to keep buying them and transmitting wherever they want and we'll have the jammers, poor harmonics, and interference to deal with.
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