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Harris / MA/COM / GE / Ericsson Forum - For general discussion of MA/COM EDACS and ProVoice systems, including equipment.

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Old 07-27-2017, 1:50 PM
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Default P/M 7200 Questions

Hello all, Trying to get a little info. Do the 7200 series do CPQSK and C4FM P25 automatically or does it need to be programmed as such by site? How many channels per GROUP (ZONE in moto terminology). Also, when programming sites to roam, does each site need to be programmed separately or is just a list of all C.C.s and alternates programmed?? one more question. Do frequencies on a Harris p25 system need to be loaded in a specific order (kind of like a LCN)?? Thanks for any replies.
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Old 07-27-2017, 1:52 PM
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I own one that is loaded but no do you have 33 and 39? To support P25 Trunking? And no LCN order or anything like that


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Old 07-27-2017, 1:56 PM
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You are asking a ton of questions here and there are several variables that impact what you likely are really trying to ask. These include specifics about the system it is operating on, version of code in the radio, version of RPM, options featured in the radio, etc.

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Old 07-27-2017, 7:49 PM
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OK, I'll try to clarify. If I was to program a system that is p25 and had some sites that are stand alone and a few sites that are simulcast, does that distinction need to made when programming the sites. On XTS radios, you can set whether a site is C4FM or CPQSK. By site, I am talking about a system with more than 1 site and can roam.
Also, how many channels can be loaded per group?? I'm guessing that these radios are similar to XTS5000 radios in that model 1 radios can have 48 channels (16 channels x 3 zones). The system models can have more channels but only have 16 positions on the channel selector. I'm not sure what Harris calls zones (maybe "Groups"). If I have the terminology wrong then I am sorry and I apologize.
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Old 07-28-2017, 8:29 AM
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When programming any Harris radio to support P-25 Phase-2, you have a couple of extra items to be mindful of:

First, the radio needs to have the following three options enabled:

"12" DIGITAL VOICE
"33" P-25 Conventional
"39" P-25 Trunking (Phase-1)
"47" P-25 Trunking (Phase-2)

Then, in your IDEN table, you must define the bottom frequency for the system, as defined by the System Owner. Slot 1 is for Phase-1, slot-9 is for Phase-2.

When in doubt on the bottom frequency, I normally use the following two defaults:

800 MHz = 851.01250
700 MHz = 769.00625




Finally, over on the SYSTEM tab, there are three boxes to be concerned with:

- TDMA Capable (if it is Phase-2, this box must be checked)
- CC TX Request (if it is a Motorola system, this box must be checked)
- Linear Simulcast (if it is a simulcast system, this box must be checked)
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Old 07-28-2017, 8:34 AM
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One final item, when creating a Trunked Group Set for P-25, NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES change the value in the SYSTEM ID box to any value other than ZERO.

Doing so will cause your radio to not receive any groups!


YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED !!!
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Old 07-28-2017, 9:53 AM
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Kb4cvn, do you have back story on the cc tz request? All of our Harris radios operate on an Astro25 7.x system as well and we never checked that box.

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Old 07-29-2017, 10:39 AM
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It has to do with MESSAGE TRUNKED group calls versus TRANSMISSION TRUNKED group calls, and the funky way most [early] Motorola P-25 trunked systems operate.

The theory was once Motorola finally decided to actually follow the Project-25 specifications, use of this parameter might finally go away. I know from over 10 years of personal experience, that every Motorola and EFJ P-25 trunked system I tried to put Harris radios on required me to enable this function.




(I was the guy the Sales Force sent to potential customer locations to work out all the programming required, prior to sales demos of Harris radios onto non-Harris P-25 systems.

I would quietly arrive about 2-3 days before the equipment demo, reverse engineer the target system, creating a 'ghost' radio to receive group calls. Then on the day of the actual demo, once given permission from the System Owner/Administrator and assigned talkgroups and USER ID's, it was a simple matter to have working radios in a few short minutes.

Motorola Schaumburg knew of me, and would offer me a job from time-to-time. I always took this as a left-handed complement! )
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Old 07-29-2017, 10:43 AM
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Thanks, I'm guessing that it hasn't come up for us since the system we operate on started as a 7.x but that is good to know going forward. I'm in the process of doing the reverse as we stand up an SR10 system deconflicting everything to get Motorola and EFJ/Kenwood terminals fully working.

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Old 07-30-2017, 2:27 PM
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If the the P25 system is not using Linear Simulcast operation does having the box checked create an issue?

Will having the CC TX box checked on a P25 Harris system make any difference?
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Old 07-30-2017, 2:31 PM
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Nope, no issue.

What the box does when enabled adds a bit of 'fudge factor' to the control channel timing, allowing it to function in a Simulcast environment. The actual text from the help screen on this box is:


Linear Simulcast (P25T)
This checkbox enables or disables Simulcast for P25 Trunking.

Simulcast systems will have an added delay before a control channel response is received. The radio needs to expect the added delay in the control channel processing.
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Old 07-30-2017, 2:59 PM
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Ah,I see.

Thanks
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Old 07-30-2017, 9:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb4cvn View Post
One final item, when creating a Trunked Group Set for P-25, NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES change the value in the SYSTEM ID box to any value other than ZERO.

Doing so will cause your radio to not receive any groups!


YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED !!!
Warning is incorrect. I have multiple Harris radios operating on P25 Phase 1 and 2 systems. Every single system does not have this set as zero.
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Old 07-31-2017, 5:17 AM
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Quote:
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Warning is incorrect. I have multiple Harris radios operating on P25 Phase 1 and 2 systems. Every single system does not have this set as zero.
I believe that this comes into play on multi region systems (intra-wacn roaming).

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Old 07-31-2017, 1:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gesucks View Post
Warning is incorrect. I have multiple Harris radios operating on P25 Phase 1 and 2 systems. Every single system does not have this set as zero.
&

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisasterGuy View Post
I believe that this comes into play on multi region systems (intra-wacn roaming).
The problem arose when radios were programmed with the SYSTEM ID value in the SAME VALUE as the existing HOME SYSTEM value in the radio.

If the value was something different value as that of the Home System, there should not be an issue.
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Old 07-31-2017, 1:27 PM
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None of mine are on Multi WANC or Multi SYSID systems. They all have the SYSID value in that field the same as the SYSID of the system and they all work.
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Old 08-02-2017, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gesucks View Post
None of mine are on Multi WANC or Multi SYSID systems. They all have the SYSID value in that field the same as the SYSID of the system and they all work.

Maybe Harris got around to changing the software to allow this?
Dozens of user's were "shooting themselves in the arse" with this field, by doing exactly what you are doing. By entering a value in the box, it acted as a NULL on the SYSTEM ID entered in on the P-25 System Tab.
TAC would endlessly advise not to populate this box.
TAC wrote a TSM warning people not to populate the box.

I told TAC to remove the damn check box before the P-25 User Groups filed an official complaint with APCO over it.


Who knows...

I'm retired. Not my headache any longer!
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Old 08-10-2017, 6:28 PM
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Quick question: For a radio to operate on a Phase 2 system, with option 47 present, does it also HAVE to have P25 phase 1 trunking in it as well?

I'm thinking the answer is no but I'm not positive, hence the question.
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Old 08-10-2017, 6:41 PM
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Yes, it needs the p25 trunking feature

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Old 08-11-2017, 10:05 AM
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Interesting. Now I'm trying to figure out why I ended up with a radio that got the Phase II option but does not have the Phase I option. You'd figure that they would not allow the Phase II option to go into a radio that doesn't have the base Phase I option which is apparently required for it to be a workable radio.
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