DBS - Dish or Direct TV?

Direct TV or Dish? HD Picture quality and overall cost.

  • Dish

    Votes: 9 45.0%
  • Direct TV

    Votes: 11 55.0%

  • Total voters
    20
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WB4CS

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I think this is the right section to post this in...

Soon I'll be moving to a rural area where the only CATV provider available is not worth the monthly subscription. Most of the channels I'm used to watching with my current provider are either not available with the rural provider, or they have the channel but not in HD. First world problems, I know.

I considered going back to OTA programming, but here in North AL all we get OTA is the 5 major networks and a couple of retro-TV channels. Not really what I call entertainment.

So, I'm considering going back to satellite TV. About 10 years ago I had DirectTV but dumped them for Dish because at that time Dish had the better channel lineup. Now I see that both have close to the same channel line up, and both have the channels I watch the most in HD. Both also seem to be priced around the same amount per month.

So, this poll is to find out what your preference is between the two providers. Which one has the better HD picture quality? How about customer service? Overall cost of programming? Please vote and discuss.

Thanks!
 

popnokick

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Have you priced satellite lately? Doubt you'll save much vs cable.
 

XTS3000

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A few years ago, Dishnetwork had a better HD picture quality. However now, Directv has the better HD quality.

For the same price, you'll get better channels with Directv.

You'll get the best deal if you buy your own equipment - IRD and dish. When buying used IRDS, before paying for it, call Dtv and make sure the IRD doesn't have a balance due on it.
 

Darth_vader

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Neither, frankly. Go DVB-S and ATSC. I wouldn't rely on DVB-S alone, since you more than likely won't find your local programming on the birds, but rather use it as a compliment to your existing ATSC or QAM installation. (And you get access to feeds, which are always cool to track down.)

Regarding cable:

Don't know how Crapcast in Huntsville works, but if it's anything like out here, chances are you *may* be able to grab the in-the-clear QAM channels even from a supposedly "disconnected" line. Comcrap Vancouver have historically been extremely bad about disconnecting unused connections--this actually goes back to the Columbia Cable days of the late 1980s-early 1990s. As a testament to this, my Dad had told Columbia to "take this cable bill and shove it" clear back in 1994 (back when $30/month for 57 NTSC Chanels and Nothing On was considered outrageous.) Yet we enjoyed cable programming in glorious, harmonically-related Never Twice the Same Colour for well over 10 years at that house, through two or three cable company buyout cycles yet, and it didn't cost him any more than the price of a new cable-ready VCR every three years or so (or however long it would take them to wear out a VCR--the parents used to do a lot of recording back then, and they're big movie buffs.)

And no, 4CS, this isn't another "lid test" thread--Dad actually used to exploit the almighty cable company like this. You have to remember, the guy's enough of a cheapskate to make Jack Benny look a philanthropist. He basically picked it up from his parents, and *they* were basically of the type where you could amputate your hand at the wrist in the workshop and their response would be "well, wash off the stump and put a band-aid on it and be more careful next time. Have you seen the cost of an emergency room visit lately? Besides, losing an appendage every so often builds character!" Yet they thought nothing about the cost of draining a case of Jack Daniel's a week and chain-smoking a pack of Merits every day for 60-odd years.

Anyhoo, if you have a 256QAM-compatible receiver and can find a coax outlet, blind-scan the system and see what you come up with. Chances are you might not be able to get anything if they did indeed disconnect it at the junction box, but with Comca$t you never know.

(See also: http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/lineup_web/US:35801+#lineup_9878561)
 

WB4CS

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Hello Darth,

DVB-S, if I'm remembering correctly is that similar to the old big dishes? My Google search didn't turn up much useful information, if you could point me in the right direction it would be appreciated. I had considered a big ugly dish TVRO but from my research that pretty much went out of style in the 90s. I would be interested in investigating DVB-S depending on what programming is available and the size of the dish needed. Wild feeds were always fun to hunt for.

I currently have Comcast but the neighborhood I'll be moving to is in the territory of a small company called Mediacom. Their HDTV channel line up is terrible and bundled with internet is more expensive than my current Comcast subscription.(!!!!) You're correct, Comcast is notorious for leaving it connected at the box outside. Before I subscribed to cable I hooked it up to my HDTV and received for free the very channels you provided in your link. Unfortunately that site doesn't appear to have the Mediacom lineup for the area, but be sure I'll to hook it up and try it out when I move in.

EDIT: Well IF I move in. Did the home inspection today, depending on how much the seller wants to replace a dead HVAC system I may or may not get the house. No A/C in Alabama summers is not cool, pun intended.
 

w2xq

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In the past couple of days, the business/investing news had an item concerning a merger of Dish and Direct TV. I didn't pay attention, but any merger will change the satellite TV scene. I think the point of the article was that satellite TV is losing customers; a merger may be the way to survive. If you are looking at DBS, maybe worth looking at the players? HTH.
 

Darth_vader

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Ummm... yes and no. DVB-S is actually one of two, or three if you count DSS, digital video transmission systems used on satellites. (The other one is General Instruments' Digicipher II, which ATSC, and by extension, QAM are offshoots of.)

Like Never Twice the Same Colour, Pay Another Licence and (I think) Something Entirely Contrary to the American Method, DVB can be transmitted via C-band or Ku-band. So yes, it's basically the modern implementation of the old "big dish" systems. See, what happened was DVB (and DC2) eventually more-or-less displaced NTSC as the standard video transmission system--both are capable of multiplexing, hence far more data content can be carried per transponder than the old SCPC analogue system. There are still a few NTSC transponders "up there", but they're getting hard to find.

No, because with a little bit of patience C-band DVB actually *can* be received more or less successfully with a threefer (I've read about people pulling in C with a dinky little 1 1/2-foot mini dish, and even managed to do it myself once), but generally the bigger the dish the better.

Echostar use a slightly modified (but still mostly standards-compliant) form of DVB-S for their service; before they went to Nagravision III scrambling a few years back, there was a fair amount of stuff that could be had from the Echostar birds provided you had a circular LNB. (Mostly audio programming--the business music company Muzak contracts with Echostar to carry its DBS service, although there were a few video channels here and there.) That all went away when they converted from Aladin to Nagra III, mainly because the latter isn't compatible with in-the-clear transmissions. Last I checked, the only thing I could receive on Echostar with my Pansat 9200HD or Viewsat Pro was that "Channel 101" barker.

See:
http://lyngsat.com/america.html
http://tsreader.com/mpeg/index.html (kind of old, but still relevant)
http://forums.radioreference.com/electronics/272330-any-big-dish-satellite-guys-here.html (another discussion along these same lines)

Well, hell, since DiSH use DVB-S as their transmission system, I'll submit my vote for them, even though I wouldn't actually be caught dead giving somebody money for a TV signal. That, and they have all that cool Muzak programming that dominates the 900s block.

"No A/C in Alabama summers is not cool, pun intended."

Try being a west-of-the-Cascades boy hanging out in Pendleton at the beginning of July when the local temperature is a balmy 115 degrees and the air conditioner in your hotel room suddenly gives up the ghost. Happened to me a couple years ago (that "GMRS vacation" I mentioned in the other thread.) "Not cool" indeed. ;o)

At least they let me move to a nicer room on the same floor with a king bed, kitchenette and Jacuzzi tub, yet, at no cost. (The previous one just had a double queen, a microwave and a shower.) Can't complain!

"In the past couple of days, the business/investing news had an item concerning a merger of Dish and Direct TV. I didn't pay attention, but any merger will change the pay-satellite scene. I think the point of the article was that pay-satellite TV is losing customers; a merger may be the way to survive. If you are looking at DBS, maybe worth looking at the players?"

Well, pretty much everything else these days is a monopoly, or headed down that path, so why not? Just another excuse to go ATSC/QAM and DVB!
 
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WB4CS

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Darth,
Thanks for the very detailed info... it actually sounds right up my alley. When I was a kid I would spend hours with our big-ugly-dish hunting for programming. Come to think of it, that was just before I got into radio. So C-Band satellite was probably my first attempt at chasing DX ;)

I'm at work right now, so the only link (besides RR of course) that I could access is lyngsat. So here's two questions for you...

1) Say I have my dish pointed at this satellite Galaxy 13 and I see that there are a good number of CATV channels there. Would that require some kind of pay subscription to receive those?

2) With the smaller size dish, say a 3ft, would it need to be permanently pointed at one bird, or is there a way to receive more than one satellite at a time?

My mind is still stuck on the old VCII days of C-Band, where you paid for a subscription (or in my family's case, paid $10 for some codes and got it all for free :) ) and a rotatable dish. I'm still trying to figure out if DVB-S works in a similar fashion.

I'll try to do some more Googling on it today if I have time.
 
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Darth_vader

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1) Looks like almost all of those are Digicipher II (GI/Moto's digital broadcasting equivalent to VCII, sort of) and using the encrypted mode, so yeah, those would need not only a subscription (or at least the permission from Viacom or whomever to receive them) and a compatible receiver. In most cases you can't get DCII on a DVB box, even the in-the-clear stuff, although I think there might be a driver for the Dreambox that does it but I really couldn't tell you. Looks like you can get the BBC from transponder 4, though, if you have a receiver that does DVB-S2*.

One of the guys on the other thread (think it was zzdiesel) has a DC2 box ("4DTV" as he describes it), but the impression he gives in some of his later posts (after you had dropped off the thread) is that DC2 probably won't be around for too much longer. The more versatile (and open) DVBS/S2 really does most (if not all) of the stuff DC2 does anyways and it's an open, industry-standard system, so it really is kind of redundant. I think betwixt the two of them there might be/have been a somewhat obscure "format war" going on that we never really heard about!

* There are presently two implementations of DVB on satellite: S and S2. S2 is like "S on steroids", since it can also do fancy stuff like MPEG2/4 HD and the like. An S2-equipped receiver is usually backward-compatible with regular S programming, but not vice-versa. Upgrades are available for a number of older receivers, like my Pansat, that give it that capability, although I think some of the the newer DVB silicon may already have it.

2) Yeah, permanently setting it at one bird is one way to do it (mine is currently like that since I don't have a motor), you can try mounting additional LNBs on the arms if your dish has a T-mount (like the better-quality ones have), or you could put it on a motor that's controlled by the receiver. These days a technology called DISEQC (dy-sek, DIgital Satellite EQuipment Controller) is widely deployed which puts the signalling and operating voltage for motors, polarators and LNBs on the same coax as the downconverted RF signal, so you don't have to run a bunch of extra cables like you would have had to do years ago--just one common line for everything. (Just remember to shut the receiver OFF completely before adding or removing LNBs and things, to avoid frying them or the receiver--you may even need to unplug the box from the wall, depending on its design. I learnt that the hard way once.)

"My mind is still stuck on the old VCII days of C-Band, where you paid for a subscription (or in my family's case, paid $10 for some codes and got it all for free) and a rotatable dish. I'm still trying to figure out if DVB-S works in a similar fashion."

Yeah, to some extent it works in a similar fashion, except it's much more complex to get set up--unless you have blind scan and a motor/dish mover, you basically have to know the exact specifications of the transponder you want to receive (frequency, symbol/bit rates, error correction, service/programme identifiers, etc.) and you have to basically get it exactly in position or it won't come in. It's changed considerably from the days when you could just point your dish south, fiddle with the position, polarity and subcarriers a bit and get a usable signal.

You *might* be able to get away with using an old analogue LNB for DVB work, provided that it's in good repair and you have equipment that can power it (I've known guys who have done that, to varying degrees of success or disappointment) but it's best to use one designed specifically for DVB since they have a lower noise floor and are usually compatible with DISEQC. That, and you can't use a commonly-available Echostart/Direct LNB to receive programming from the non-DBS Ku-band birds because they use circular polarisation, which is incompatible with the linear polarisation the non-DBS birds use. Most reasonable-quality IC/FTA DVB receivers do support such LNBs, for compatibility with circular signals.

Now, if your receiver box/USB/PCI board has CAM (conditional access module) support, you could probably still call up the cable nets that use DVB and see about getting ones for their packages for whatever their price is. I've actually never done that myself so I couldn't tell you if they do that or not. Theoretically, there's a chance that they either (1) might hang up on you because they think you're just cranking them ("duhh...DVB? What the hell is DVB? Who are you, anyways? How did you get this number?") or (2) not provide it because they want you to get it via DBS instead. Depending how clueless or uncooperative they are, it might be a good chance to brush up on your social engineering skills!

Either that or you could venture into the super-technical world of descramblers and pirate decryption. Granted I'm not really the one to ask about that (and it would probably require a whole forum unto itself, since like with analogue transmission, there are so many different scrambling formats that can be used with DVB) but may be what you'd need to do as a last resort, if there's some cable net that you just *have* to have and all else fails...

http://global-cm.net/ also has satellite charts and information on how to set up DVB kit.

There's also a Google Maps-based site that gives positioning information and shows you the direction in which to point your dish, but I don't remember the URL right off the top of my head, think it might have been dishpointer.com or something like that.
 
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WB4CS

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Darth,
That's awesome information, thank you!

That definitely sounds like something I would like to play around with one day. Based one the satellite charts, I would need to move the dish around to at least 4 different positions to receive basically everything HD that would be covered by CATV. The sad thing is I imagine the costs of the hardware, plus programming (if it's even possible to subscribe) might not be as cost effective as just going to DBS.

In order to make my better half happy, we'll probably go with DBS. Not sure which one yet, I guess I still need to sit down and compare prices. However, your info on DVB-S has gotten my curiosity up and it may be something I experiment with in the near future as a hobby. As for hobbies, when I move, step 1 is purchase a complete HF station. After that I may look into getting into this just to see what I can find in the clear. I'll definitely do more research on it and educate myself on how it all works.

Thanks again!
 

fleef

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BUDs? Is that what you all were talking about? Digicipher II? Am I in the right year??

If anyone's still reading this- and A) you don't want a giant dish (do they still exist?) nor want to pay for any monthly services, I guess you could go with Ku free to air. A lot of foreign stuff, religious b'casting, and some English language news channels (CCTV China, PressTV Iran, RT Russia) to name just a few. There are countless radio stations. Countless! Free to air systems run about 150/200 dollars for the whole deal receiver and dish, which is 90cm (not BUD!) and you pay nothing a month.

Lyngsat.com has a listing of the satellite that I'd' recommend if you get a fixed non-motorized dish which is Galaxy 19.

They are not difficult to install yourself.
 

Darth_vader

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Yup, BUDs. Digicipher II is GI/Moto's MPEG-based followup to the archaic analogue Videocipher systems, which ATSC is also based on.

It *is* possible to get C-band with a 3-foot dish if you have the appropriate LNB, a clear enough line of sight and enough patience (speaking from experience), but it's kind of finicky and hit-and-miss with DVB because of its all-or-nothing nature. And yeah, G19 is a good bird to point at if using a fixed-position dish, since that's where all the interesting foreign/international programming is. That's the one mine is pointed at.

"Free to air systems run about 150-200 dollars for the whole deal, receiver and dish"

Yeah, that's about average for a really basic setup, I think. My Pansat 9200HD cost me just over $400 for the base model (no hard drive or DVBS2 board) back in 2005-ish, but I also already had a dish that somebody gave me for free. The LNB's just a cheap no-name Chinese affair that cost me about $30 on Amazon.

Here's where I got my receiver from: http://gosatellite.com/ (based in Seattle)
 

WB4CS

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BUDs? Is that what you all were talking about? Digicipher II? Am I in the right year??

If anyone's still reading this- and A) you don't want a giant dish (do they still exist?) nor want to pay for any monthly services, I guess you could go with Ku free to air. A lot of foreign stuff, religious b'casting, and some English language news channels (CCTV China, PressTV Iran, RT Russia) to name just a few. There are countless radio stations. Countless! Free to air systems run about 150/200 dollars for the whole deal receiver and dish, which is 90cm (not BUD!) and you pay nothing a month.

Lyngsat.com has a listing of the satellite that I'd' recommend if you get a fixed non-motorized dish which is Galaxy 19.

They are not difficult to install yourself.

Hey Fleef,
Yeah, I'm still watching this thread and thanks for the post. Me and Darth had a pretty extensive conversation about C/Ku (read above.) That's something I may get later on to play around with and augment my TV time. Of course it will have to be way later on down the road, my first priority is putting my HF station back on the air once I move.

The primary purpose of this thread was to gauge the HD picture quality between Dish and Direct TV. Me and Darth kind of got off on a tangent about C/Ku. I have to make the better half happy and make sure she has HGTV, DIY network, Showtime, AMC, History, CNN and MSNBC. All I need is BBC America and SyFy and I'm happy too. That puts C/Ku at the bottom of the list, unfortunately.
 
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Darth_vader

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Yeah, like I said, I wouldn't suggest using DVB as a replacement for your existing ATSC/QAM/DBS installation but rather as a supplement to it, although I know guys who have done just that. That's where an "all-in-one" box like the 9200HD becomes practical, as it can also receive ATSC, QAM and (so I'm told, anyways) ITFS transmissions, for the most part negating a rack/cabinet of dedicated IRDs for each band/service.

...This, of course, coming from the guy whose equipment cabinet currently is also populated with a Panasonic DMR-EZ27K (disk drive failed years ago but the tuner still works fine) and an Insignia/Zenith ATSC receiver...
 

WB4CS

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Hey Darth,

You've probably seen this, but if you haven't, take a look.
Rainier Satellite - HDTV - PowerVu - Activation Center - C Band HD / SD Subscription Satellite Receiver Sales - 4K Ultra HD - Multiplatform Programming - 4DTV - Horizon to Horizon - Dual Axis - Polarity changers - Termination Plates - Wave Guides - I

It appears that Cisco is teaming up with this company to provide home users with First Generation master C-Band feeds in full HD (and compatible with 4K broadcasts.) Their projected launch date is sometime at the end of this year, and it looks like they're going to have a pretty decent programming lineup.

Definitely a website to keep a watch on.
 

Darth_vader

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Huh. Looks interesting, but I'm a bit confused. Are they "repackaging" the feeds and providing them as a C-band DBS-like system or are they simply providing receivers capable of decoding signals that are already there and established (like some of the things I used to see advertised decades ago in the back of "Satellite TV Week" and "Popular Science")?

Looks like their main IRD model doesn't have a controller for a dish mover, which I guess just goes with the territory if it's supposed to be a DBS-type service (no E-star or Direct IRDs I've seen have integrated motor controllers, either, although I think some of the very early analogue era [pre-DSS] Primestar boxen specified them.)
 
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WB4CS

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Best I can tell they are selling programming packages and hardware from already established channels. They tout providing first generation master broadcasts, which would lead me to believe they aren't repackaging/rebroadcasting.

I'm keeping a watch on this company, they say they'll be ready to release programming sometime by the end of this year. I'm not sure how sustainable it is in the long term since the content providers can change their encryption whenever they want, but according to the site they've already signed contracts with several content providers.

I guess we'll wait and see what happens.
 

rapidcharger

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I have had dish network for about 14 years now.
I'm pretty loyal to them.
For starters, they have a cheaper entry level package.
When my dvr/rxr craps out they get me out a new one the next day (FOR FREE without having to sign a new contract)
They don't play games with the bills.

I briefly had to go with cable in 2005 when I was temporarily renting and I absolutely hated it. The picture was crap and that was "digital" cable. I couldn't wait to go back to satellite.

I wish they sold reasonably fast internet.
 

WB4CS

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Okay, another question for those of you that have Dish and Direct, what's the on demand like? From what I've read it looks like you have to have your receiver connected to high speed internet for on demand. What's the selection of TV shows and networks like? How much bandwidth do they suck up? Looks like the internet provider I'll have has a 250GB a month limit. I'm not sure how much streaming HD content it would take to hit that limit.
 

Darth_vader

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Probably not that much, if it's in 1920*1080 format, compared to a pittly little <=480 video stream. I've never used Direct or Echostar's "on demand" services, so I can't comment on its performance in particular. But in general, as with NTSC, video streams can be real bandwidth hogs.
 
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