Edgar County Sheriff goes Turbo

[usswood]

under its new pending license the Edgar County Sheriff has started using MotoTurbo on 3 VHF Freqs around the County!...Paris Receive is 155.250...LEO's I have talked to don't like it because of all the dead spots out in the County, but o well, Turbo is in!

Not sure if they dropped there subscription to Cleartalk, but they haven't been using it for a few weeks now!

 

[W9WSS]

under its new pending license the Edgar County Sheriff has started using MotoTurbo on 3 VHF Freqs around the County!...Paris Receive is 155.250...LEO's I have talked to don't like it because of all the dead spots out in the County, but o well, Turbo is in!

Not sure if they dropped there subscription to Cleartalk, but they haven't been using it for a few weeks now!

As a former Motorola sales specialist, for clarification, it's MotoTRBO.

www.mototrbo.motorola.com

 

[usswood]

LOL..thx for the CLARIFICATION! we all knw what it is called, I jus like makin fun of it cause it sucks!~
Mr Former Motorola sales specialist! I have a cousin thats not a former, but a still employed Senior Design specialist... ; )

 

[W9WSS]

LOL..thx for the CLARIFICATION! we all knw what it is called, I jus like makin fun of it cause it sucks!~
Mr Former Motorola sales specialist! I have a cousin thats not a former, but a still employed Senior Design specialist... ; )

Don't knock it 'til you try it; There are several MotoTRBO ham systems out there, interconnected through the Internet. Oh, and my best to your cousin "still employed by Motorola." Have a nice day, bud.

 

[JRayfield]

So, why do you think MOTOTRBO "sucks"?

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

LOL..thx for the CLARIFICATION! we all knw what it is called, I jus like makin fun of it cause it sucks!~
Mr Former Motorola sales specialist! I have a cousin thats not a former, but a still employed Senior Design specialist... ; )

 

[mikewazowski]

Because he won't be able to listen to it.

 

[usswood]

Exactly!

 

[JRayfield]

Oh, surely that's not it.

I've come to the conclusion that most of the 'stories' and 'negative comments' that are posted on these forums, about MOTOTRBO systems not working correctly and/or being 'terrible', fall into four categories:

1. The stories are made up, just not true. This may actually be information that is repeated from competitors to DMR. It wouldn't be the first time that something like this has happened in the business world.
2. The person making the 'negative' comments about MOTOTRBO has no clue as to whether the system really works well or not, but he/she just doesn't like the fact that they can't easily monitor it anymore.
3. The systems truly aren't working as they -could- work, because the dealer that set them up doesn't understand MOTOTRBO well enough to correctly design a system and get it working properly. MOTOTRBO is not 'plain old two-way radio' like we've all been used to working with and using for the past 50 years. There's a definite learning curve to properly implementing MOTOTRBO systems.
4. The person making the 'negative' comments has listened to a user of the system who is having trouble, but has no idea why (from a technical perspective) and blames their problems on the system itself when the problems may be elsewhere.

A good example of this last category is one of my customers who was complaining of problems. While I think we may have had some problems due to an issue in the version of firmware that was in the mobiles and portables (we flashed the units to the latest version of firmware and that did seem to help), we found one truck with no antenna and the coax 'disconnected' from the antenna mount. Another antenna had been mounted down in the windshield wiper 'well', and the SWR was around 3:1. They had a former employee do some of the installation work, after we had checked everything over (after first installation) and he had no clue as to what he was doing. The coax wasn't even soldered onto the antenna mount (on the one that had fallen apart) because he didn't get anywhere near enough heat on the connections to melt the solder to the mount. And one of the complaints doesn't have anything to do with the system at all - they're dispatched by another company, who's dispatch console system isn't set up properly (for good sounding audio), so it sounds pretty bad on the MOTOTRBO system. If that company's console system was set up properly, then it would sound fine on the MOTOTRBO system. But that console system isn't maintained by us, so we have no control over it.

Simply put, when MOTOTRBO systems are designed properly (and that doesn't mean designing them like we used to design two-way radio systems), and the equipment is programmed and installed properly, and you don't run into a little software bug (it happens with everyone's products nowadays), the MOTOTRBO systems will perform extremely well, much better than any analog systems that I've seen anywhere in 34 years in this industry.

And as fast as DMR is growing, I think it's only a matter of time (and maybe not too much time) before a scanner manufacturer develops and markets a scanner capable of monitoring DMR.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

Because he won't be able to listen to it.

 

[usswood]

Hey...jus going by what the Deputy told me...and I quote " they even told us to make sure our cell phones where charged for every shift" Theyre doing more talking by Cell now instead of the radio

 

[JRayfield]

This kind of sounds like one of my 'category 3' cases.

Maybe I should give them a call and offer my services to get their system working properly.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

Hey...jus going by what the Deputy told me...and I quote " they even told us to make sure our cell phones where charged for every shift" Theyre doing more talking by Cell now instead of the radio

 

[FastSnake]

FYI, here what you aren't aware of on the Edgar Sheriff problem.
1. This system was specked out to 150 watts erp but the FCC has a moratorium going on with Mototrbo and not allowing more than 5 watts on the repeaters out put so the system is turned way down to meet this criteria.

2. the sites where having internet hop issues that tie them together. this has been resolved as of Friday the 8Th.

3. The Sheriff was advised NOT to terminate his contract with clear talk until the known bugs where worked out do to Officer safety, He decided to save taxpayer dollars and terminate the old radio contract on his own.

4. The coverage issue now is due to a 20 plus year old fiberglass antenna and line at the county jail that needs replaced (this covers the south end of the county). There has been talk of possible moving the Paris repeater south with new line and internet link if a new antenna at the150' jail tower does not fix this issue.
the system works, but with all radio systems it need tuned and optimized for real word use.

Did this deputy advise you that the mobiles have worked (1 tower will actually cover the 50 watt mobile in the entire county, ive personally seen it tested), and its only the portables that are the real issue? my guess is not, and also keep in mind they have not been properly trained by the radio dealer on how to use the radios yet, hence the advisement to the sheriff not to cut clear talk yet. Also, as stated with DMR advancement and scanners, both the Sheriff and Paris Police are encrypted systems so monitoring still will be an issue.
I'm not trying to start anything here, but letting people know whats really going on.

 

[JRayfield]

For a short period of time, frequency coordinators would only authorize VHF public safety frequencies, using MOTOTRBO, for 10 watts ERP (effective radiated power) maximum. However, that has changed, and systems will now be licensed for up to 1/2 (-3db) of the power level that would be allowed for analog FM systems, given the same antenna system. So if an analog repeater would be allowed at 100 watts ERP, then a MOTOTRBO system will be limited to 50 watts ERP. This isn't at all unreasonable, since a properly operating MOTOTRBO system will usually give considerably better range as compared to analog FM (especially narrowband FM). Where agencies used to want to run as much power as possible, these new systems need to be designed more like cellular systems, with lower power, lower antenna heights, and more sites (networked together, of course, to provide the wide-area coverage that many users need). If designed properly, the coverage and performance of MOTOTRBO systems can be excellent, but they must be designed properly.

And, yes, it definitely helps if the dealer teaches the user how to use the equipment.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

FYI, here what you aren't aware of on the Edgar Sheriff problem.
1. This system was specked out to 150 watts erp but the FCC has a moratorium going on with Mototrbo and not allowing more than 5 watts on the repeaters out put so the system is turned way down to meet this criteria.

2. the sites where having internet hop issues that tie them together. this has been resolved as of Friday the 8Th.

3. The Sheriff was advised NOT to terminate his contract with clear talk until the known bugs where worked out do to Officer safety, He decided to save taxpayer dollars and terminate the old radio contract on his own.

4. The coverage issue now is due to a 20 plus year old fiberglass antenna and line at the county jail that needs replaced (this covers the south end of the county). There has been talk of possible moving the Paris repeater south with new line and internet link if a new antenna at the150' jail tower does not fix this issue.
the system works, but with all radio systems it need tuned and optimized for real word use.

Did this deputy advise you that the mobiles have worked (1 tower will actually cover the 50 watt mobile in the entire county, ive personally seen it tested), and its only the portables that are the real issue? my guess is not, and also keep in mind they have not been properly trained by the radio dealer on how to use the radios yet, hence the advisement to the sheriff not to cut clear talk yet. Also, as stated with DMR advancement and scanners, both the Sheriff and Paris Police are encrypted systems so monitoring still will be an issue.
I'm not trying to start anything here, but letting people know whats really going on.

 

[SCPD]

So, why do you think MOTOTRBO "sucks"?

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

Because they are way over priced and under featured.......Try Hytera. There is a reason they are now the second largest manufacturer in the world, in a short amount of time. They sell a DMR radio for half the price of a MotoTrbo unit, and with more features. I had Trbo and switched to Hytera, and highly recommend the same move to anyone else. Owning a Motorola radio is like havin a Harley.....if you wanna it to work, you gotta add $$ here and $$ there. They nickle and dime every possible feature, with "feature unlocks". Hytera comes with everything you need, and half the price. Also, available with a 5yr warranty, and a hell of a lot better support from the manufacturer.

 

[JRayfield]

There are differences between different pieces of radio equipment, that are often not so obvious to end users, especially those who are not highly technically knowledgeable of how this equipment works. For example, in testing, the Hytera units have proven to be more susceptible to intermodulation interference as compared to the XPR-series of radios. In some cases, this isn't an issue. In others, it can be extremely important.

As to support from the manufacturer, Motorola provides excellent support. In over 34 years in this industry, and having been a dealer for several different brands of equipment over that time, Motorola has proven to be the best in terms of support. I don't see how anyone could be any better , based on my personal experience. And if I was to base an opinion of Hytera's support on a conversation that I overheard at IWCE this past February, between a Hytera dealer and a Hytera employee, I would come to the conclusion that Hytera support is terrible. That dealer was EXTREMELY upset at the poor support that he had received up to that time. I was very surprised that the Hytera employee was talking with this dealer in public, it was so bad. Motorola products are also available with 5 year warranty, including an extended warranty that covers any damage to the unit (just like cell phone 'accident' insurance). This 'extended' coverage is only available on the MOTOTRBO product line and the XTS/XTL/APX high-tier product line.

As to features that are included in the Hytera, but that are 'extra cost' in the XPR-series, to features are you referring? An XPR-6550 or an XPR-7550 comes with all features enabled (including Capacity Plus and Linked Capacity Plus Trunking, except for Connect Plus trunking, which doesn't add much to the cost of the radio.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

Because they are way over priced and under featured.......Try Hytera. There is a reason they are now the second largest manufacturer in the world, in a short amount of time. They sell a DMR radio for half the price of a MotoTrbo unit, and with more features. I had Trbo and switched to Hytera, and highly recommend the same move to anyone else. Owning a Motorola radio is like havin a Harley.....if you wanna it to work, you gotta add $$ here and $$ there. They nickle and dime every possible feature, with "feature unlocks". Hytera comes with everything you need, and half the price. Also, available with a 5yr warranty, and a hell of a lot better support from the manufacturer.

 

[SCPD]

There are differences between different pieces of radio equipment, that are often not so obvious to end users, especially those who are not highly technically knowledgeable of how this equipment works. For example, in testing, the Hytera units have proven to be more susceptible to intermodulation interference as compared to the XPR-series of radios. In some cases, this isn't an issue. In others, it can be extremely important.

As to support from the manufacturer, Motorola provides excellent support. In over 34 years in this industry, and having been a dealer for several different brands of equipment over that time, Motorola has proven to be the best in terms of support. I don't see how anyone could be any better , based on my personal experience. And if I was to base an opinion of Hytera's support on a conversation that I overheard at IWCE this past February, between a Hytera dealer and a Hytera employee, I would come to the conclusion that Hytera support is terrible. That dealer was EXTREMELY upset at the poor support that he had received up to that time. I was very surprised that the Hytera employee was talking with this dealer in public, it was so bad. Motorola products are also available with 5 year warranty, including an extended warranty that covers any damage to the unit (just like cell phone 'accident' insurance). This 'extended' coverage is only available on the MOTOTRBO product line and the XTS/XTL/APX high-tier product line.

As to features that are included in the Hytera, but that are 'extra cost' in the XPR-series, to features are you referring? An XPR-6550 or an XPR-7550 comes with all features enabled (including Capacity Plus and Linked Capacity Plus Trunking, except for Connect Plus trunking, which doesn't add much to the cost of the radio.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

I have seen side by side, that the XPR's were more prone to be affected by desense than the Hyteras. We tested 2 of each at the exact same time and same location when we were looking at converting to Hytera. The Moto's desensed each other bad, while the Hyteras didnt. As far as intermod, i am fortunate that we dont have issues here locally with that.

I guess service comes down to personal experience. You say you witnessed an issue with a dealer with Hytera, i personally have had Moto issues and know other who have as well. So, thats a toss up. We are dealers of 5 different manufacturers and I base my statements totally on personal experience. I guess when you become a Hytera dealer, you can feed us in on your comparison.

Good to see that Motorola is offering an extended warranty. Is is less than $20 per unit to extend to 5yr of coverage? Just curious how they compare.

As far as the features im referring to , the cost of going from a standard radio to a GPS model was a lot higher on Moto. The big difference i saw was on repeaters. The Moto's were pricey to add IP connect, and then you had no ability to support analog after the IP upgrade. The Hyteras will, which is great for migration of analog to digital or mixed mode us by a customer. Also, on Hyteras, there is a Pseudo Trunk feature, where last i knew, Moto makes you dedicate a user to a single time slot.

I won a job i bid against a Moto dealer. Was a multisite system on UHF. Moto wanted $100K with no AVL. I was able to do it with AVL for under 40% of that. That shows the excellent price difference between the 2.

 

[JRayfield]

Interesting on the desense. I think I know what you're referring to. I'll have to ask some of the my engineering 'contacts' at Motorola about that. I would think that they would have done some comparisons like that, too.

Yes, I agree, service does come down to personal experience. Likely, everyone has had their good experiences and bad experiences, probably with the same companies. It really often boils down to the individual people who we're dealing with.

I don't remember what the cost of the extended warranty is for the MOTOTRBO radios. Sorry.

Motorola hasn't offered the non-GPS/upgradeable models for a long time. Those were discontinued several years ago. They do now have a model without GPS, but it can't be upgraded. So all models that have GPS available, come standard with it.

As to repeaters, I believe the Hytera repeaters are less expensive as compared to the MOTOTRBO repeaters (the XPR8400 series). But the XPR8400 repeaters come standard with IP Site Connect (IP networking). The repeaters have always come standard with this capability. You are correct, in that if the repeater is in the IP Site Connect 'mode', then it can't support mixed-mode operation (analog/digital switching 'on-the-fly'). That is a design decision, as I've had discussions with Motorola about this.

As to Hytera's "Pseudo Trunking", Motorola has had that capability since before Hytera introduced it. Motorola calls it "Capacity Plus". And yes, you can 'trunk' the two time slots on one repeater, or you can add more repeaters, and trunk all of the time slots. Now, Linked Capacity Plus is available (or will be very soon), which allows for multisite trunked systems, without any additional controllers (only what's in the repeaters).

It's very difficult to get a good idea of how different brands compare, with regards to pricing, by looking at competitive bid situations, since different dealers will price the equipment at different 'profit margins'. The best way to compare pricing, is to compare list prices (MSRP). That's going to give a much better idea as to how they really compare, without the 'variable' of how the dealer prices the equipment to the end user.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

I have seen side by side, that the XPR's were more prone to be affected by desense than the Hyteras. We tested 2 of each at the exact same time and same location when we were looking at converting to Hytera. The Moto's desensed each other bad, while the Hyteras didnt. As far as intermod, i am fortunate that we dont have issues here locally with that.

I guess service comes down to personal experience. You say you witnessed an issue with a dealer with Hytera, i personally have had Moto issues and know other who have as well. So, thats a toss up. We are dealers of 5 different manufacturers and I base my statements totally on personal experience. I guess when you become a Hytera dealer, you can feed us in on your comparison.

Good to see that Motorola is offering an extended warranty. Is is less than $20 per unit to extend to 5yr of coverage? Just curious how they compare.

As far as the features im referring to , the cost of going from a standard radio to a GPS model was a lot higher on Moto. The big difference i saw was on repeaters. The Moto's were pricey to add IP connect, and then you had no ability to support analog after the IP upgrade. The Hyteras will, which is great for migration of analog to digital or mixed mode us by a customer. Also, on Hyteras, there is a Pseudo Trunk feature, where last i knew, Moto makes you dedicate a user to a single time slot.

I won a job i bid against a Moto dealer. Was a multisite system on UHF. Moto wanted $100K with no AVL. I was able to do it with AVL for under 40% of that. That shows the excellent price difference between the 2.

 

[SCPD]

Interesting on the desense. I think I know what you're referring to. I'll have to ask some of the my engineering 'contacts' at Motorola about that. I would think that they would have done some comparisons like that, too.

Yes, I agree, service does come down to personal experience. Likely, everyone has had their good experiences and bad experiences, probably with the same companies. It really often boils down to the individual people who we're dealing with.

I don't remember what the cost of the extended warranty is for the MOTOTRBO radios. Sorry.

Motorola hasn't offered the non-GPS/upgradeable models for a long time. Those were discontinued several years ago. They do now have a model without GPS, but it can't be upgraded. So all models that have GPS available, come standard with it.

As to repeaters, I believe the Hytera repeaters are less expensive as compared to the MOTOTRBO repeaters (the XPR8400 series). But the XPR8400 repeaters come standard with IP Site Connect (IP networking). The repeaters have always come standard with this capability. You are correct, in that if the repeater is in the IP Site Connect 'mode', then it can't support mixed-mode operation (analog/digital switching 'on-the-fly'). That is a design decision, as I've had discussions with Motorola about this.

As to Hytera's "Pseudo Trunking", Motorola has had that capability since before Hytera introduced it. Motorola calls it "Capacity Plus". And yes, you can 'trunk' the two time slots on one repeater, or you can add more repeaters, and trunk all of the time slots. Now, Linked Capacity Plus is available (or will be very soon), which allows for multisite trunked systems, without any additional controllers (only what's in the repeaters).

It's very difficult to get a good idea of how different brands compare, with regards to pricing, by looking at competitive bid situations, since different dealers will price the equipment at different 'profit margins'. The best way to compare pricing, is to compare list prices (MSRP). That's going to give a much better idea as to how they really compare, without the 'variable' of how the dealer prices the equipment to the end user.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

The Hytera repeaters with the IP connect installed are still quite a bit cheaper than the XPR8400 series repeaters with IP. Thats apples for apples comparison.

We had Mototrbo a year ago, and pseudo trunk was not available with Motorola. They would sure be glad to sell you trunking upgrades though. Were as, the Hytera repeaters have pseudotrunk standard. That is not an upgrade. The Hyteras can link multiple repeaters with pseudo trunk enabled. With the new 4.5 firmware, you can have 32 repeaters connected to one master. Then you can set 1 master as a Super Master, thus getting 32x32 repeaters connected (1,024 sites) .

When i spoke of pricing differences, i was basing that off of DEALER pricing, as you are correct, each dealer will have different markup. So, if Hytera is already cheaper to the dealer, in most situations they will be able to beat a Motorola dealers bid. That is, unless the Hytera dealer is WAY greedy!!

 

[JRayfield]

I've seen what some Hytera repeaters are sold for.....very low cost.

I have no idea who told you that Capacity Plus trunking wasn't available last year, but that wasn't true. Capacity Plus trunking has been available since sometime in 2009. It is an 'upgrade' in the repeaters, but not in the mobiles or portables. That is neat that Pseudo Trunking is standard in the Hytera repeaters. That makes them quite inexpensive for the features included.

That is good where you can have up to 32 repeaters connected to one master or even more. Pretty slick.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

The Hytera repeaters with the IP connect installed are still quite a bit cheaper than the XPR8400 series repeaters with IP. Thats apples for apples comparison.

We had Mototrbo a year ago, and pseudo trunk was not available with Motorola. They would sure be glad to sell you trunking upgrades though. Were as, the Hytera repeaters have pseudotrunk standard. That is not an upgrade. The Hyteras can link multiple repeaters with pseudo trunk enabled. With the new 4.5 firmware, you can have 32 repeaters connected to one master. Then you can set 1 master as a Super Master, thus getting 32x32 repeaters connected (1,024 sites) .

When i spoke of pricing differences, i was basing that off of DEALER pricing, as you are correct, each dealer will have different markup. So, if Hytera is already cheaper to the dealer, in most situations they will be able to beat a Motorola dealers bid. That is, unless the Hytera dealer is WAY greedy!!

 

[SCPD]

I've seen what some Hytera repeaters are sold for.....very low cost.

I have no idea who told you that Capacity Plus trunking wasn't available last year, but that wasn't true. Capacity Plus trunking has been available since sometime in 2009. It is an 'upgrade' in the repeaters, but not in the mobiles or portables. That is neat that Pseudo Trunking is standard in the Hytera repeaters. That makes them quite inexpensive for the features included.

That is good where you can have up to 32 repeaters connected to one master or even more. Pretty slick.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

They didnt say Capacity Plus wasnt available. I just couldnt see paying the additional cost for that feature, when it was standard on the Hyteras. Also, with the lower cost, it was an easy call for me to make, to cross over. So far, its been great. We have 10 sites linked on UHF. Regardless of what radio company you go with, you just cant beat DMR. What a practical and efficient use of spectrum!!! The audio is excellent and the features of AVL, texting, Email, etc......what the heck is so great about P25. Just a waste of our tax dollars.

 

[JRayfield]

Sorry. I misunderstood. I do see what you mean about "included" versus "extra cost".

Yes, DMR is great. As I've pointed out to others, the performance is fantastic, as long as the system is installed properly.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

They didnt say Capacity Plus wasnt available. I just couldnt see paying the additional cost for that feature, when it was standard on the Hyteras. Also, with the lower cost, it was an easy call for me to make, to cross over. So far, its been great. We have 10 sites linked on UHF. Regardless of what radio company you go with, you just cant beat DMR. What a practical and efficient use of spectrum!!! The audio is excellent and the features of AVL, texting, Email, etc......what the heck is so great about P25. Just a waste of our tax dollars.