Need some licensing assistance on Chinese Radios

[matthewmatusiak]

I am not sure I have the correct forum, but I need to get some advise on licensing:

I am seeing many football officials associations (high school) in my area purchase radios from China off Amazon, pre-programmed to various frequencies, without any documentation of use or license requirements. The group I am associated with purchased Retevis H-777 radios (below I included the frequencies I stripped from the radio using the company software). The radios are programmable, have a removable antenna and have a watt output of up to 2.5 watts. I did check the FCC ID (2AAR8RETEVISH-777) provided by the company and the radio shows as part 90 certified for use from 400 - 470 mHz.

Location Frequency
1 462.125
2 462.225
3 462.325
4 462.425
5 462.525
6 462.625
7 462.725
8 462.825
9 462.925
10 463.025
11 463.125
12 463.225
13 463.525
14 450.225
15 460.325
16 469.95

I am being told these radios do not need an FCC station license. However, as I am a commercial marine radio operator, my knowledge of radio operations says differently. I know information on the internet is not accurate and the association is getting much of their information from the customer reviews on Amazon (probably entered by marketing people not regulatory ones). Additionally, some have stated that the radios have such a low output, they are exempt from FCC licensing (something I have not heard and cannot verify). The only watt exception I am aware of is an output of <0.1 watts of power, which would not apply to these radios.

I am also concerned as the frequencies listed as both in the public safety pool and business pool which might cause an interference issue and possible public safety issue. Currently the group is just turning the radios on to whatever channel is pre-programmed and transmitting on high power. I need to stop them from using these radios before a public safety issue occurs.

If anyone can give me some ideas on licensing requirements or where to look on the FCC site, let me know.

Thanks

Matthew

 

[millrad]

You are absolutely correct. Those are a mix of business and public safety frequencies and require licenses.

 

[nd5y]

Here is the FCC business radio web page:
FCC: Wireless Services: Industrial/Business: Industrial / Business Home
You probably also need a frequency coordination before you apply for a license, depending on what type of license you want.

The rules on who is eligible for a business radio license are at:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?&mc=true&node=se47.5.90_133&rgn=div8 and http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?&mc=true&node=se47.5.90_135&rgn=div8

In addition to what millrad posted one of the frequencies, 450.225, is a part 74 Broadcast Auxiliary Service frequency and 462.625 and 462.675 are GMRS frequencies.

 

[mmckenna]

6 462.625
7 462.725

These two are GMRS frequencies. Under the current GMRS rules, these require a valid GMRS license to use legally. As a group, you cannot get a GMRS license. New GMRS license are only available to individuals and cover their immediate family.

The rest of the frequencies all would require a Part 90 FCC license.

I am being told these radios do not need an FCC station license. However, as I am a commercial marine radio operator, my knowledge of radio operations says differently. I know information on the internet is not accurate and the association is getting much of their information from the customer reviews on Amazon (probably entered by marketing people not regulatory ones).

You are correct. These DO require a license to use legally in the USA. No exceptions.

Additionally, some have stated that the radios have such a low output, they are exempt from FCC licensing (something I have not heard and cannot verify). The only watt exception I am aware of is an output of <0.1 watts of power, which would not apply to these radios.

Yeah, I'm not sure who started that rumor or why it keeps spreading. I'm guessing wishful thinking.

I am also concerned as the frequencies listed as both in the public safety pool and business pool which might cause an interference issue and possible public safety issue. Currently the group is just turning the radios on to whatever channel is pre-programmed and transmitting on high power. I need to stop them from using these radios before a public safety issue occurs.

If anyone can give me some ideas on licensing requirements or where to look on the FCC site, let me know.

Thanks

Matthew

Good idea. While these are low power, they can still cause issues with other licensed systems. Frequency coordination would be required for some frequencies, but likely what you want to check into is "itinerate" license. Those frequencies would be shared, but do not require coordination. For low power radio use, that would be easy, inexpensive and suitable.

Thanks for your attempt to get properly licensed. The flood of low cost Chinese radios operating illegally is causing some issues in the industry. I really wish more people would put the effort into this that you are.

 

[krokus]

A common misnomer is the "no license" aspect of radio. All radio transmissions require some type of license, even if it is a "license by rule" service. (CB and FRS are common examples.) The FCC has said that as long as you follow the rules they have established, then that compliance is your license.

Sent via Tapatalk

 

[rapidcharger]

I am not sure I have the correct forum, but I need to get some advise on licensing:

I am seeing many football officials associations (high school) in my area purchase radios from China off Amazon, pre-programmed to various frequencies, without any documentation of use or license requirements. The group I am associated with purchased Retevis H-777 radios (below I included the frequencies I stripped from the radio using the company software). The radios are programmable, have a removable antenna and have a watt output of up to 2.5 watts. I did check the FCC ID (2AAR8RETEVISH-777) provided by the company and the radio shows as part 90 certified for use from 400 - 470 mHz.

Location Frequency
1 462.125
2 462.225
3 462.325
4 462.425
5 462.525
6 462.625
7 462.725
8 462.825
9 462.925
10 463.025
11 463.125
12 463.225
13 463.525
14 450.225
15 460.325
16 469.95

I am being told these radios do not need an FCC station license. However, as I am a commercial marine radio operator, my knowledge of radio operations says differently. I know information on the internet is not accurate and the association is getting much of their information from the customer reviews on Amazon (probably entered by marketing people not regulatory ones). Additionally, some have stated that the radios have such a low output, they are exempt from FCC licensing (something I have not heard and cannot verify). The only watt exception I am aware of is an output of <0.1 watts of power, which would not apply to these radios.

I am also concerned as the frequencies listed as both in the public safety pool and business pool which might cause an interference issue and possible public safety issue. Currently the group is just turning the radios on to whatever channel is pre-programmed and transmitting on high power. I need to stop them from using these radios before a public safety issue occurs.

If anyone can give me some ideas on licensing requirements or where to look on the FCC site, let me know.

Thanks

Matthew

So the bad news is you're not going to legally be able to use those radios. Even with a so-called certification, it doesn't absolve the operator from the rules and restrictions of its radio service and when it comes to the business band, it's probably not compliant even if I has a certification. Many of these budget import radios are coming under the microscope now for inaccurate certifications. After looking up that FCC Id (2AAR8RETEVISH-777), it has a bogus emission designator and at a power level lower than people would generally operate it at.

The good news is you didn't get taken for $83 per radio for something from some shady overseas seller.

So you want to use radios for school/sports and are on a budget. Here are your options.

1.) FRS radios Family radio service. Despite the name, these radios can be used for a wide variety of purposes, do not require you to obtain a license and are a lot cheaper than $83 for comparable break & toss it quality.

2.) MURS. The Multi-use radio service offers fewer channels but at a higher power allowance in the more user friendly VHF band. You do not need to obtain a license however you do need specific MURS radios. MURS radios must be certified for MURS and if you're unsure as to whether a MURS radio is actually really legitimately certified or not, a MURS radio will NOT be capable of transmitting outside of the five MURS frequencies.
One such radio is the Motorola RMM2050. Now, they do cost a little more than double the cost of those Chinese-no name radios but these are designed to last a lot longer and are supported in the US. Personally, this is the route I would take if it is within your budget.

3.) Business Band.
You can get some inexpensive business radios but they will require a license. I think it's $210 or $260 for 10 years, not including any fee paid for someone to do the application for you, if you use one. An outside private company finds the frequency(ies) for you. This is known as coordination and can be fairly inexpensive if you come with a radio with pre-programmed frequencies and are just going to operate from radio to radio without a repeater. Alternatively, you can use specific itinerant frequencies that don't require coordination but there are some restrictions on their use and they have to be shared with any other users. (Just as murs and FRS do). Applying for them can be a little tricky if you haven't done it before and you might get some help with it.

Hope that helps.

 

[madrabbitt]

You can use those radios in UHF in part 90. Like rapidcharger said, you need a license. Application fee for a site license plus frequency coordination.

The radios need to be programmed to 2 watts or less under part 90 rules for low power portable use. Since you probably just need one single channel, then whatever frequency assigned should be programmed into every channel, or have a blank frequency programmed into every channel except #1. This should idiot-proof the radio.

--- edit i didnt see the line where he looked up the fcc id. If the radios are illegal, then its totally time to return them to amazon and purchase ones that are legal.

Good viable alternative, depending on your metropolitan area would be radios in the 900mhz ism band. License free, low power, but should easily be able to cover your range requirements.

 

[902]

Matthew,

First, thank you for at least asking the question in a knowledgeable forum before using your new radios.

Your radios do need a license of some sort, although licenses vary greatly in form and fee. In the U.S., certain frequencies are blocked for certain types of uses. These uses depend greatly on where you are and what types of systems your local communities use. In general, channels 10 and 11 are used in many locations for paramedic to doctor online medical control when EMS is treating a sick or injured patient. Channel 15 may be used by police, fire, EMS, public works, or other local government activity. While you may not necessarily hear anything on these channels, that does not mean that interference is not possible. You should not use those channels. Your group would not pass the eligibility requirements to use those channels, anyway, based on the current FCC rules.

Some of the other channels may be used for various purposes by business and industry around you. Your group does pass the eligibility requirements to use business/industrial channels, but you will need to complete paperwork and forward it to a frequency coordinator for a license. Unfortunately, the frequency coordination services and FCC license are not free. Licensing can get expensive. There are also other alternatives that my colleagues have commented on, like GMRS, FRS, etc.

Chances are that if you choose to use a business channel, the frequency coordinator may recommend a better channel than one you have in your radio. If that happens, you will need to program your radios with that frequency and pick a unique CTCSS tone or CDCSS code to filter out other users (you pick that, it's not a part of a license or frequency coordination). Then you should probably delete all the other channels and lock the radio so no one can change off of the one you have a license for.

I might be throwing jargon at you that you're not familiar with, but all of this is in the Wiki here.

Best of luck in your radios and for a winning season!

"902"

I am not sure I have the correct forum, but I need to get some advise on licensing:

I am seeing many football officials associations (high school) in my area purchase radios from China off Amazon, pre-programmed to various frequencies, without any documentation of use or license requirements. The group I am associated with purchased Retevis H-777 radios (below I included the frequencies I stripped from the radio using the company software). The radios are programmable, have a removable antenna and have a watt output of up to 2.5 watts. I did check the FCC ID (2AAR8RETEVISH-777) provided by the company and the radio shows as part 90 certified for use from 400 - 470 mHz.

Location Frequency
1 462.125
2 462.225
3 462.325
4 462.425
5 462.525
6 462.625
7 462.725
8 462.825
9 462.925
10 463.025
11 463.125
12 463.225
13 463.525
14 450.225
15 460.325
16 469.95

I am being told these radios do not need an FCC station license. However, as I am a commercial marine radio operator, my knowledge of radio operations says differently. I know information on the internet is not accurate and the association is getting much of their information from the customer reviews on Amazon (probably entered by marketing people not regulatory ones). Additionally, some have stated that the radios have such a low output, they are exempt from FCC licensing (something I have not heard and cannot verify). The only watt exception I am aware of is an output of <0.1 watts of power, which would not apply to these radios.

I am also concerned as the frequencies listed as both in the public safety pool and business pool which might cause an interference issue and possible public safety issue. Currently the group is just turning the radios on to whatever channel is pre-programmed and transmitting on high power. I need to stop them from using these radios before a public safety issue occurs.

If anyone can give me some ideas on licensing requirements or where to look on the FCC site, let me know.

Thanks

Matthew

 

[darthchaos]

I just fell into the cheap Chinese radio trap. specifically, I bought the Retevis H-777. If I wanted to make them compliant with FRS, couldn't I just reprogram them to only use the FRS bands on every channel? And couldn't I program them to only use 2.5w or less power? Would I still need to get a license?

I bought these for a single business stationary use, one location of about 6500sf. I spent $90 on 6 units. It's looking like another $350 for part 90 compliant licensing (including the frequency coordination).

Otherwise, can someone recommend an FRS only model where I can have 6 communicating with each other? I don't really care if we're in a secure band or not. CTCSS should handle that, right?

Help!

And thank you!

 

[madrabbitt]

No, because FRS requires specific things per radio. Specifically, the inability to be frequency agile (reprogrammable) the inability to be set to a transmit power higher then 0.5 watt, fixed non removeable antenna. You cant just make a non compliant radio compliant.

 

[902]

I just fell into the cheap Chinese radio trap. specifically, I bought the Retevis H-777. If I wanted to make them compliant with FRS, couldn't I just reprogram them to only use the FRS bands on every channel? And couldn't I program them to only use 2.5w or less power? Would I still need to get a license?

I bought these for a single business stationary use, one location of about 6500sf. I spent $90 on 6 units. It's looking like another $350 for part 90 compliant licensing (including the frequency coordination).

Otherwise, can someone recommend an FRS only model where I can have 6 communicating with each other? I don't really care if we're in a secure band or not. CTCSS should handle that, right?

Help!

And thank you!

I hate to say it, but the due diligence on licensing and compliance should have come before the purchase. There's no way these can be made compliant, and from the specs, apparently no way to "hide" them at a half-watt to "look like" they're compliant.

If it looks too good to be true, it probably is.

This is a Boolean answer: Bite the bullet and get the license you need or send them back/auction them, then go get genuine FRS radios or MURS radios to be "license free." Ask 50 people and the answer will be the same 50 times.

 

[Aaron_B]

I hate to say it, but the due diligence on licensing and compliance should have come before the purchase. There's no way these can be made compliant, and from the specs, apparently no way to "hide" them at a half-watt to "look like" they're compliant.

If it looks too good to be true, it probably is.

This is a Boolean answer: Bite the bullet and get the license you need or send them back/auction them, then go get genuine FRS radios or MURS radios to be "license free." Ask 50 people and the answer will be the same 50 times.

Just curious, what are the chances that the FCC will actually enforce non-compliant radios on the FRS band. Also, what would happen if you were caught, would the FCC just issue a cease and desist or would there be a fine as well.

 

[gewecke]

Just curious, what are the chances that the FCC will actually enforce non-compliant radios on the FRS band. Also, what would happen if you were caught, would the FCC just issue a cease and desist or would there be a fine as well.

Your Federal Government loves your money! Don't find out, and YES there would Be a fine. 73, n9zas

 

[bill4long]

Just curious, what are the chances that the FCC will actually enforce non-compliant radios on the FRS band.

Zero. As long as the radios are not interfering with other services.

The FCC is a complain-driven agency with limited resources, and they don't scour the cities looking for FRS violations.

Whether or not you should do it, is up to you.

 

[902]

Just curious, what are the chances that the FCC will actually enforce non-compliant radios on the FRS band. Also, what would happen if you were caught, would the FCC just issue a cease and desist or would there be a fine as well.

In my opinion, especially considering the recent cutbacks at the FCC field offices, very, very slim. Unless there's some kind of interference that makes the operations stand out in someway and attract attention. Then, that changes.

What happens from that point varies. Both situations individually and together "could" happen, but I suppose that depends on what side of the bed someone woke up on. Excursion from a spec that's outlined in rule can draw a fine. They can also direct you to cease operation, and in some cases, seize the equipment (although I wouldn't know why they'd do that in this case).

I like to believe people want to do the right thing, although they get themselves into situations where they might not know what the right thing is at that moment. That's why I wouldn't say, "Ignore it. No one will notice." Yeah, an isolated case, maybe not. But when everyone starts ignoring the rules things do end up getting noticed. To me, that's like making a habit out of running a stop sign at a quiet intersection. 998 times out of a thousand nothing happens. Then one time, there's a police car going in the other direction you didn't see and you get pulled over. The final possibility is that you hit the police car while you roll through it, and that wouldn't be good for anyone.

 

[SCPD]

In my opinion, especially considering the recent cutbacks at the FCC field offices, very, very slim. Unless there's some kind of interference that makes the operations stand out in someway and attract attention. Then, that changes.

What happens from that point varies. Both situations individually and together "could" happen, but I suppose that depends on what side of the bed someone woke up on. Excursion from a spec that's outlined in rule can draw a fine. They can also direct you to cease operation, and in some cases, seize the equipment (although I wouldn't know why they'd do that in this case).

I like to believe people want to do the right thing, although they get themselves into situations where they might not know what the right thing is at that moment. That's why I wouldn't say, "Ignore it. No one will notice." Yeah, an isolated case, maybe not. But when everyone starts ignoring the rules things do end up getting noticed. To me, that's like making a habit out of running a stop sign at a quiet intersection. 998 times out of a thousand nothing happens. Then one time, there's a police car going in the other direction you didn't see and you get pulled over. The final possibility is that you hit the police car while you roll through it, and that wouldn't be good for anyone.

I don't understand people say go ahead and use your radio on any frequency and the FCC won't find out. People who go that route are breaking the law. I don't care that thinking they won't be caught, etc is crap. Most of us have paid the GMRS fee, frequency coordination and the fees and licenses associated with. I if find someone is transmitting illegality on my legally obtained frequency on it, do you think I would just let it go?. No way and using direction finding equipment and you happen get to caught, a complaint with the FCC will be filed. Those CCR's maybe sending out spurs on other frequencies causing interference. The cost of licensing maybe prohibiting but being legal is better than receiving a cease and desist or heaven forbid an NAL from the FCC. Those cheap Chinese radios are making this problem worse since most have test frequencies pre-programmed in them working right out of the box.

 

[SCPD]

Hi Matt......

I see you originally posted your question here 2 months ago- I hope you are still in here-
I can sympathize with you, your associates, and others- for the big kick you'll receive ($) filing for a license, the frequency co-ordination, and such... these cost themselves can be several times what you-all spent on those radios. **
.
The link below is to the official (ie; "FCC) site that deals with Business radios. It is a good jumping off point- this Title 47- if you wish to purse the subject further (like getting an idea where the poice, fire departments etc. are allocated frequencies.)
.
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...32d53a95f&mc=true&node=se47.5.90_135&rgn=div8
.
(I hoped that link'd correctly-- or. better still- just Google " FCC Part 90. subsection C"....... sometimes me and the 'Net are at odds.... )
.
Now, please!! do not take this as advice!.... but as you peruse the tables of frequencies, you will see there are some 'channels" that should definitely be avoid-- and there are others that are, well, not quite like the ones you should avoid. **Again!**, use this as a guide--it is presented here strictly for educational purposes only....! ...........( uh huh.! and laffing..... )
.
Along this same line, I highly advise your group to never ever think of dropping below 420Mhz.... (no laughing here).... those are not FCC regulated frequencies- and the boys and girls there play by entirely different rules... rules and techniques you don't want to find out about...
.
Cheers, Matt...!
.
.............................................. CF
.
____________________________________________________________________
.
**Its too bad, about the state of our Federal Gov., for in times past, radio license fees, if and when they were charged (!)-- were vastly more reasonable than today... hence it was easier for the little schlubs to comply......

 

[mikewazowski]

I see you originally posted your question here 2 months ago

Actually, 1 year and 2 months but the thread came back to life by someone with a similar question.

 

[SCPD]

(laughing! .... )...... oh well, what is the phase?..."its the thought that counts?".....

.
...........................so she says as she slinks off back under her rock

 

[romanr]

300-420MHz

Hi Matt......
Along this same line, I highly advise your group to never ever think of dropping below 420Mhz.... (no laughing here).... those are not FCC regulated frequencies- and the boys and girls there play by entirely different rules... rules and techniques you don't want to find out about...
......

I was sincerely entertained by your comment. Thank you for the smiles!