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LTR is dead???

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WatnNY

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I read in another post that LTR is "dead". I find that interesting, as there is several LTR systems in the Knoxville, TN area.

Mike
 

ecps92

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LTR Analog is moving to DMR, but ... with the developments from Uniden and Whistler... :roll:

Most of the Analog 900 Motorola TRS in New England are dead of soon, moved to TRBO
Most of the Analog VHF/UHF LTR have gone NXDN, IDAS or TRBO already
I read in another post that LTR is "dead". I find that interesting, as there is several LTR systems in the Knoxville, TN area.

Mike
 

mmckenna

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I read in another post that LTR is "dead". I find that interesting, as there is several LTR systems in the Knoxville, TN area.

Mike

I've never fully understood why people will make blanket statements like that. LTR is alive and well. You can still purchase LTR equipment.
Many companies will run it until there is no possible way to get parts/support/radios, etc. That's just the way things go for many.

Sure, it's been "replaced" by newer technologies.

By the way, I'm still waiting for the flying car that many predicted we'd all have by the year 2000.
 

Project25_MASTR

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Many shops are looking for migration paths though. A current possibility is hooking up Simoco XD bases in place of existing repeaters and running them in mixed mode pseudo-trunking. As clients gradually upgrade equipment LTR sites get turned off and turned into Tier III. Halfway through the off load you have the same DMR capacity as you did with LTR.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
 

Darkstar350

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Definitely not "dead" but you do have to take into consideration that LTR was one of the first - if not the first trunking technologies

And yes it does seem that(in my area in particular) carriers that formerly used LTR for their trunk systems are now moving to MotoTrbo/Nexedge systems but LTR is definitely not dead and i think its worthwhile for anyone that may come across a frequency that seems to be carrier squelch/no tone to run it thru LTR decoding software to see if its actually a LTR freq...
 

Voyager

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In my area, there are few LTR systems left. There used to be many, but they were nearly all converted to DMR or NXDN. So, in some areas, it certainly is dying. It's not dead yet, but not far from it. Same with Motorola Type II and earlier variants. I think there is one Type II system left in my area.
 

ecps92

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Similar blanket statement that comes out from time-time as well of "Nope - They are encrypted, can't listen to the FEDS" :evil:

Things change and evolve. Most are moving from Analog to Digital (DMR) and now with the new Toyz under the Christmas tree, we shall see :cool:

I've never fully understood why people will make blanket statements like that. LTR is alive and well. You can still purchase LTR equipment.
Many companies will run it until there is no possible way to get parts/support/radios, etc. That's just the way things go for many.

Sure, it's been "replaced" by newer technologies.

By the way, I'm still waiting for the flying car that many predicted we'd all have by the year 2000.
 

jeepsandradios

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I just pulled down my last LTR system. TRBO and Passport are still around here. Being my wife and I were the only ones left on LTR and i needed a different radio it was time...
 

902

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LTR is a great system, but if you are a system operator, it could be prone to abuse by people programming more equipment on the system than they are paying for. Also, DMR is the "latest and greatest" that allows more than one conversation per repeater and has some better security features. I don't think LTR is dying, but there might be some business decisions that move to other modes.
 

Project25_MASTR

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Almost makes me wonder why MPT never really took off in the US.

DMR is a newer technology and offers almost double the capacity to LTR with the same amount of hardware (less if the controllers are integrated to the hardware). Native networking also has some advantages. What I've been seeing with LTR is that the pickings of subscribers is beginning to thin out (manufacturers are trying to push digital) and it gives the impression that it is dying. Doesn't mean it's dying.

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bryan_herbert

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The brand new T-Mobile Arena here in Las Vegas has a LTR system, plus I found two other LTR systems last weekend that aren't in the RR database. So there's at least 20 LTR systems (that I know of) that are currently active here in town. LTR is certainly not dead.
 

PACNWDude

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I worked with a local company a year or so ago that still thought MPT and LTR were still viable and continued to support hardware they made on these two platforms. They were so into the analog world, and hardware based as a company.

It was explained to me that they wanted to go digital and become a software company. This has not gone well, as they hired too many Microsoft engineers. Hardware is being shipped with a lot of software issues. The Microsoft types feel they can fix them with many updates every few months like PC's.

At least the old LTR systems still work. Unless the radios need to be replaced or upgraded. I had a rack full of LTR controllers, some were about 25 years old and still worked. Granted the radios were low duty cycle though.
 

INDY72

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Yepper, LTR is very much alive and well for at least another few years. Though the issue with LTR SMR's is this: Most LTR SMR's are owned and run by an service provider that is also an radio dealer. This means they are "powered" by the primary corporate entity that they sell. If they run Motorola, then they are going to be pressured to move onto the newest tech, that makes it an easy upgrade from the LTR to digital. In Motorola's case, that is MotoTRBO. Hence the quickly accelerating upgrades to having at first, an LTR, and TRBO system side by side. Then the eventual offline of the LTR as they push the subscribers over to upgrade. With iCOM shops, the push is to NexEDGE, and same as with TRBO/LTR, side by side, then full NXDN. Both formats are very, very much similar to LTR, but with the advantages of digital. Though in my book, DMR (TRBO), is the real winner as it offers TDMA upscalable expansions as that tech improves. I mean, you win with 2 Chan's/TG's as compared to one with each freq. (2 Slot TDMA DMR)

And in the future, that will expand to 4, and eventually 6. But for the sole user LTR's,... They will be around far longer than the SMR ones as they are not pushed hard on an daily basis to "step up to the future".
 

902

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Yepper, LTR is very much alive and well for at least another few years. Though the issue with LTR SMR's is this: Most LTR SMR's are owned and run by an service provider that is also an radio dealer. This means they are "powered" by the primary corporate entity that they sell. If they run Motorola, then they are going to be pressured to move onto the newest tech, that makes it an easy upgrade from the LTR to digital. In Motorola's case, that is MotoTRBO. Hence the quickly accelerating upgrades to having at first, an LTR, and TRBO system side by side. Then the eventual offline of the LTR as they push the subscribers over to upgrade. With iCOM shops, the push is to NexEDGE, and same as with TRBO/LTR, side by side, then full NXDN. Both formats are very, very much similar to LTR, but with the advantages of digital. Though in my book, DMR (TRBO), is the real winner as it offers TDMA upscalable expansions as that tech improves. I mean, you win with 2 Chan's/TG's as compared to one with each freq. (2 Slot TDMA DMR)

And in the future, that will expand to 4, and eventually 6. But for the sole user LTR's,... They will be around far longer than the SMR ones as they are not pushed hard on an daily basis to "step up to the future".

NXDN has had an attempt to do that type of "pair gain" for two talk-paths within a 12.5 kHz channelspace. I've seen a few 3.125 kHz offset from center frequency license applications, and it was a big enough deal several years ago for the FCC to issue a Report and Order on it. And then, that seemed to die down. Seems to me, though, that the R&O was biased, in that they required NXDN implementers to be FB8 on certain frequencies - only - for the two talk-paths (actually two separate repeaters with isolators and combiners), and DMR has no such restrictions (yet seems to be more problematic, especially since it's been allowed on non-paired VHF).

I never thought about it that way, looking at the vendor sales angle, but I would suppose that if you have a captive audience, you might want to change-out the platform so they would buy the latest and greatest. It's done with other products all the time. The advantage LTR has is that it was released into the public domain by E.F. Johnson. Otherwise it really would have been dead a long time ago, and it's versatile enough to be band agnostic. I suppose it's the Linux of two-way.
 

Steveradio

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when you have a wide and high area to cover like the Pocono Mountains its most active area for LTR easy to switch from tower to tower and its more of a money maker for the radio shops..My service we have two repeater sites we utilize and have decent service.

To be honest not sure why other dont use LTR more and the only other problem is when radios need to be upgraded everyone is pushing DMR..
 

Project25_MASTR

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when you have a wide and high area to cover like the Pocono Mountains its most active area for LTR easy to switch from tower to tower and its more of a money maker for the radio shops..My service we have two repeater sites we utilize and have decent service.

To be honest not sure why other dont use LTR more and the only other problem is when radios need to be upgraded everyone is pushing DMR..

You kind of answered your own thought there at the end.

DMR offers nearly double the capacity on the same amount of hardware. It also offers roaming in both Tier II and Tier III configurations which nearly eliminates the need for the client to change trunks or really mess with the radio. The technology has completely eclipsed the functionality of LTR (which is why you really don't hear much about installs of new LTR systems). LTR was extremely successful but now manufacturers want to push their new technologies. Then agian, with the advent of the cellular industry, the demand for multi-user consumer systems has declined considerably.
 

RADIOGUY2002

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Hmm lets think about this-
Encryption feature set
2 channel time slot (more when done in capacity plus format or connect plus)
site linking-with built in controllers, mutiple locations, widespread connectivity for wider area of coverage, to include state wide based systems and/or dealer shared resources. mutiple user's expandable id's.

I personally prefer analog older stuff, but my equipment features trbo capabilities or idas.nxden as secondary. The moral of any good system or developer of any system is options.
 

domes

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Feature set is one thing but think of the performance improvements. No static, no multipath sputter or degradation, no alternator whine or accelerator noise, no fade, no Doppler effect, elimination of background noise, AGC (automatic gain control) that provides a relatively consistent "set & forget" volume level, seamless roaming without user intervention, and more useable range than our LTR from the same sites with much better in-building coverage. We operate a UHF SMR Nexedge multi-site and you absolutely can not tell if the cement truck is parked with the engine shut off when he Tx's or if he is running 65 MPH down the highway.

This is what impresses our business customers and former LTR users more than the bells & whistles.
 

domes

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NXDN has had an attempt to do that type of "pair gain" for two talk-paths within a 12.5 kHz channelspace. I've seen a few 3.125 kHz offset from center frequency license applications, and it was a big enough deal several years ago for the FCC to issue a Report and Order on it. And then, that seemed to die down. Seems to me, though, that the R&O was biased, in that they required NXDN implementers to be FB8 on certain frequencies - only - for the two talk-paths (actually two separate repeaters with isolators and combiners), and DMR has no such restrictions (yet seems to be more problematic, especially since it's been allowed on non-paired VHF).

I never thought about it that way, looking at the vendor sales angle, but I would suppose that if you have a captive audience, you might want to change-out the platform so they would buy the latest and greatest. It's done with other products all the time. The advantage LTR has is that it was released into the public domain by E.F. Johnson. Otherwise it really would have been dead a long time ago, and it's versatile enough to be band agnostic. I suppose it's the Linux of two-way.


You used to have to file a waiver to operate 2-6.25/12.5 . The R&O you refer to was when the FCC formalized the process. License with the 4K & 8K emission on the same freq. is authorization for the pair. And yes they operate at +/- 3.125 from center. There is a proposal at the FCC now to permit a third repeater on center under special conditions on a 12.5 FB8. Most trunked very narrow NXDN systems operate on the 6.25 single channels between the 12.5's because they are easier to combine and are still virgin spectrum in most markets and readily available as FB8.

bart
 
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