RadioReference on Facebook   RadioReference on Twitter   RadioReference Blog
 

Go Back   The RadioReference.com Forums > Commercial, Professional Radio and Personal Radio > Industry Discussion

Industry Discussion - General discussion forum for commercial and professional radio technologies. This includes manufacturers not listed below.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2017, 5:00 PM
Member
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Jackson Hole, Wyoming
Posts: 13
Default questions about radio "rentals"

Greetings all,

First, please move this if this isn't the appropriate spot for this question!

I recently started a new job with a company that rents radios for a few months during their busy time in the summer. I started asking around about frequencies and tones, and no one seemed to know the answer. I was able to pull the model and cross reference the operating band (UHF) no real surprise there. I assumed they were operating on one of the UHF itinerant frequencies. I scanned those to no real avail. I finally borrows a friends frequency counter and pulled the frequencies from the radio. All simplex operations so no real big deal there. Come to find out that they are 460.2875, 461.2875, 462.2875, 464.2875 and 466.2875. Interesting full on business pool frequencies... My question is about FCC licensing. I am assuming that as "renters" of the system we would be "covered" under their FCC license; and this is what they told me when I called them up and asked them. What I didn't get from them was their actual FCC call sign for the license we were operating under. Nor, when I search the FCC ULS can I find anything in our area or the area of the company (other side of the country) that is renting the radios that would suggest a valid FCC license.

So:
1. Does the FCC license flow down to the "renter" in a situation like this?
2. What the liability /legality to our organization we are using a radio that is not properly licensed?
3. I have a sneaking suspicion that the operation of these radios probably isn't 100% legal.
4. Does the FCC issue nation wide part 90 frequencies that ARE NOT itinerant?

Thanks!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2017, 8:18 PM
mmckenna's Avatar
Member
   
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SNCZCA01DS0
Posts: 7,119
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimyhatt View Post
1. Does the FCC license flow down to the "renter" in a situation like this?
Yes. In this case the licensee should be the company that is renting you the radios. The license authorizes them to run a certain number of radios in a specified location. The license will cover one or more frequencies, a maximum power level, a emission mode, etc.
You/your company is not the licensee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimyhatt View Post
2. What the liability /legality to our organization we are using a radio that is not properly licensed?
As an end user, not much. The FCC would fine the licensee in this case. You guys are just consumers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimyhatt View Post
3. I have a sneaking suspicion that the operation of these radios probably isn't 100% legal.
Wouldn't be the first time. However, you haven't said anything yet that suggests that. Not being able to find the license isn't reason yet. With companies changing hands a lot, you may not find the name of the company who rented you the radios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimyhatt View Post
4. Does the FCC issue nation wide part 90 frequencies that ARE NOT itinerant?
Yes, absolutely.
__________________
--------------------
Beer me.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2017, 8:58 PM
Member
  Premium Subscriber
Premium Subscriber
Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Joplin Mo
Posts: 415
Default

In one of my other lives I ran a large outdoor festival and rented 40-50 Moto radios from one of the big rental houses for about a week every summer. I "coordinated" the UHF freqs and speced them to the rental house to avoid any local usage issues and they arrived with those freqs.
I am *sure* these freqs were on their license (snicker, snicker). We started renting from the local Moto shop but outgrew their inventory, but stayed in contact. He dropped by to look at them and said they were all models not allowed in US - I remember an "80" or "88"? Anyway, it appears to be a decent market and no one seems to mind on these short term uses.
YMMV

W
__________________
Wally Bloss, WB0BAV
HTTP//www.wallybloss.com
A Human
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2017, 9:07 PM
RFI-EMI-GUY's Avatar
Member
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,233
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimyhatt View Post
Greetings all,

First, please move this if this isn't the appropriate spot for this question!

I recently started a new job with a company that rents radios for a few months during their busy time in the summer. I started asking around about frequencies and tones, and no one seemed to know the answer. I was able to pull the model and cross reference the operating band (UHF) no real surprise there. I assumed they were operating on one of the UHF itinerant frequencies. I scanned those to no real avail. I finally borrows a friends frequency counter and pulled the frequencies from the radio. All simplex operations so no real big deal there. Come to find out that they are 460.2875, 461.2875, 462.2875, 464.2875 and 466.2875. Interesting full on business pool frequencies... My question is about FCC licensing. I am assuming that as "renters" of the system we would be "covered" under their FCC license; and this is what they told me when I called them up and asked them. What I didn't get from them was their actual FCC call sign for the license we were operating under. Nor, when I search the FCC ULS can I find anything in our area or the area of the company (other side of the country) that is renting the radios that would suggest a valid FCC license.

So:
1. Does the FCC license flow down to the "renter" in a situation like this?
2. What the liability /legality to our organization we are using a radio that is not properly licensed?
3. I have a sneaking suspicion that the operation of these radios probably isn't 100% legal.
4. Does the FCC issue nation wide part 90 frequencies that ARE NOT itinerant?

Thanks!
1) Here is link to an FCC license WPLZ523 for a typical radio rental business. I cannot say that this is an ideal license for such operations, but at least the FCC has issued under that premise.

ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Conventional License - WPLZ523 - RADIO RENTALS INC

2) Your firm would be subject to an FCC Notice of Apparent Liability and a large monetary fine.

3) The rental firm should be able to furnish a license for the area of operation where your firm is located.

4) Yes but obtaining them will require expensive frequency coordination.

Your first frequency is from the Public Safety pool. Unless your radio rental company has a waiver, this frequency should not be in any business radios.

90.20 Public Safety Pool

460.2875 Note: 27 Public Safety Pool

(27) This frequency will be assigned
with an authorized bandwidth not to
exceed 11.25 kHz. In the 450–470 MHz
band, secondary telemetry operations
pursuant to 90.238(e) will be authorized
on this frequency.

90.35 Industrial/Business Pool

461.2875 Notes: 83/86 Industrial/Business Pool
462.2875 Notes: 83/85 Industrial/Business Pool
464.2875 Notes: 30/62 Industrial Business Pool
466.2875 Notes: 83/85 Industrial/Business Pool

(30) This frequency will be assigned
with an authorized bandwidth not to
exceed 11.25 kHz. In the 450–470 MHz
band, secondary telemetry operations
pursuant to 90.238(e) will be authorized
on this frequency.

(62) This frequency may be assigned
to fixed stations in the Industrial/Business
Pool in accordance with the provisions
of 90.261.

(83) Telemetry operations on this frequency
will be authorized pursuant to
90.267.

(85) Operation on this frequency is
subject to the low power provisions of
90.267. This frequency is assigned to
Group B in the low power pool.

(86) Operation on this frequency is
subject to the low power provisions of
90.267. This frequency is assigned to
Group C in the low power pool.

There is enough in your post to make me wary of the company your are dealing with. If they cannot produce a license reflecting the frequencies these radios use and the location where they are used I would take my business elsewhere.

The prices of radio equipment have plummeted to the point where it could make more sense to own than to rent.And procure your own FCC license. There are unlicensed options as well like MURS and 900 MHz ISM radios.

If the rental company were providing the security and umbrella of a legally operating system, that would sway things to the rental side. But, it may be the case where you are renting a liability. I suggest discussing this with your management at least to the point of getting clarification as you are correct, the FCC wants stations to identify themselves with a callsign and if the rental company cannot furnish one that should raise a red flag. You would not rent a car without license tags and registration and likewise the airwaves are similarly regulated. I understand you are new on the job and probably want to avoid hassles. It could be the radio rental company is the bosses son! That said, this could be a liability for the company and they may be one of those risk adverse companies that would like a heads up. If this situation is one you are ultimately responsible for, speak up.

I am curious, what model radios are you renting? Some older models are not compatible with the new narrowbanding rules and thus would be a further illegality operating in wide band mode.
__________________
"Have Spectrum Analyzer, - Will travel" "Going Green"

Last edited by RFI-EMI-GUY; 07-07-2017 at 9:11 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2017, 9:48 PM
RodStrong's Avatar
Member
  Shack Photos
Shack photos
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,079
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wbloss View Post
We started renting from the local Moto shop but outgrew their inventory, but stayed in contact. He dropped by to look at them and said they were all models not allowed in US - I remember an "80" or "88"? Anyway, it appears to be a decent market and no one seems to mind on these short term uses.
YMMV
W

My guess is GP88's. I've used them many times at events in the US (in the wideband days) when provided by rental outfits. I think the GP300 was the US equivalent.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2017, 9:53 PM
Member
   
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,837
Default

When I was in the repeater business many years ago I had to get licensed as a common carrier to allow my customers to use their radios on my repeaters and pay me for the air time they used. I also rented radios with air time for occasional use by any business that needed them.

The conversations I had with the frequency coordinator at the time said without being a common carrier, my FCC license would only cover me and my employees for whatever type of business was listed on the application, but it would not cover the completely different types of businesses that rented my service. The only other option at the time was without being licensed as a common carrier, any company I rented air time to over my repeaters would have to obtain their own license on my freqency and that would severly restrict the amount of customers I could find. So I paid a little more and got the common carrier status.
prcguy
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2017, 10:10 PM
RFI-EMI-GUY's Avatar
Member
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,233
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by prcguy View Post
When I was in the repeater business many years ago I had to get licensed as a common carrier to allow my customers to use their radios on my repeaters and pay me for the air time they used. I also rented radios with air time for occasional use by any business that needed them.

The conversations I had with the frequency coordinator at the time said without being a common carrier, my FCC license would only cover me and my employees for whatever type of business was listed on the application, but it would not cover the completely different types of businesses that rented my service. The only other option at the time was without being licensed as a common carrier, any company I rented air time to over my repeaters would have to obtain their own license on my freqency and that would severly restrict the amount of customers I could find. So I paid a little more and got the common carrier status.
prcguy
I think that would be an FB6 classification
__________________
"Have Spectrum Analyzer, - Will travel" "Going Green"
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2017, 12:50 PM
Member
  Amateur Radio Operator
Amateur Radio
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Jackson Hole, Wyoming
Posts: 13
Default

Thanks everyone for the replies. The provider was able to give me the license call sign. Unfortunately, only one of the frequencies I was able to deduce (via scanner and frequency counter) are listed on the license. I have a friend with the correct CPS and was gonna have him pull the code plug on one of the radios just to double check the frequencies. They are all Moto UHF radios.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2017, 7:06 PM
captaincab's Avatar
Member
   
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: monitoring delco pa with gre psr300 pro2053 and bearcat 560xlt
Posts: 323
Default

Just a heads up radios can possibly be password protected so only the people who rent them to you can access the programming.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 9:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
All information here is Copyright 2012 by RadioReference.com LLC and Lindsay C. Blanton III.Ad Management by RedTyger
Copyright 2015 by RadioReference.com LLC Privacy Policy  |  Terms and Conditions