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Capacity Plus or Nexedge

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zsauve

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I have been tasked with upgrading my university's aging analog radio system and and need some opinions. The radio system we currently use 4 repeaters on conventional analog (Motorola GR-1225's & Kenwood TKR-850's). Due to coverage and capacity issues, we are looking to switch to digital and a form of trunking.

I am having a difficult time deciding whether to go with a Motorola DMR Capacity Plus trunking system or a Nexedge Trunking system. Are there any benefits of one type vs the other. Also I am aware that we will have to switch our existing license from "IG" to "YG" for trunking. How much would we expect to have to pay when we switch license types and to add digital emissions?
 

mmckenna

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Either will work well.

I was in the same boat back in 2011. My old Motorola SmartNet system was failing on a regular basis and it was time to replace it.
We didn't need P25, so we looked at the obvious options.
Low option was a basic LTR analog system. Got tosses since we tend to keep systems a long time and didn't want to invest in "old" technology.
MotoTrbo was considered, in fact, we had a test repeater up for a while and a couple of loaner radios. What killed it was that we are assigned 5 NPSPAC 800MHz pairs, and at the time Motorola refused (as in actively prevented) their MotoTrbo radios for working on those frequencies. Said we needed to buy P25 or get new pairs.
We trialed a Kenwood NexEdge NXDN system, and it worked well. Kenwood was very supportive.

What we've discovered in the last 5 years:
The NXDN radios, when set up properly, sound better than the DMR radios.
The two slot DMR system is nice, but if you are not running a trunked system, a repeater going down takes down two time slots. That would be half your system. Since you obviously already have antennas, combiners, RX multicouplers, etc. There would be no additional cost there, unless you changed frequencies.
By installing 5 separate repeaters, if one fails, we don't have an issue. It's not a big impact on our operation.

I've got a bit over 400 active radios on my system, a mix of mobiles and portables. We've had very few issues with the Kenwood radios. No issues with the mobiles. Out of the 400+ radios, we've had 3 or 4 failures in 5 years. The NX-410's have served us well. I've recently put some lower demand users on the NX-420.

Do consider where your local support comes from. We do most of our own maintenance, so it's not a big deal for us, but I do have a couple of Kenwood shops in a 100 mile radius.
Back when we were running the Motorola system, the only MRSS shop that could do our contract repair work was 150 miles away, and we'd often get pushed off a few days, even when repeaters failed.

In the end, it was mostly the better/more responsive Kenwood support that sealed the deal. After 20 years of Motorola service, we didn't want to put ourselves through that again.

A few other things…
Consider the full cost of the subscriber radios. That includes things like periodic battery replacement, audio accessories, replacement antennas, etc. Accessories can be expensive.

If you are going to run data over this system, the 12.5KHz NXDN channels can do close to 9600baud. If voice is your only concern, then the 6.25KHz NXDN works well.

Again, I think either would be fine, just look closely at the support structure. Feel free to PM me if you want more details about our system.
 

Project25_MASTR

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I think mmckenna stated thing quite well.

Although, at this point I wouldn't be looking at just Motorola for DMR solutions but Capacity Plus is fairly easy an straight-forward to setup.

The things I will say in terms of NXDN versus Capacity Plus. NXDN is a true trunking format requiring the use of a control channel. So with 4 channels you'll only have 3 talk paths at any given time. With Capcaity Plus there is no designated control channel so in a 2 channel setup you have 4 talk paths. From my reasearch, NXDN SU's and repeaters are roughly 30% less but there is the lesser amount of hardware required with Capacity Plus. 3 SLR5700's would get you 6 talk paths but you have a full repeater for failover at a similar price point of the 4 NXDN repeaters if you only load to the need of 4 channels. The downside to Capacity Plus is there is no form of ID management unlike other true trunking schemes.

Both have their pluses and minuses. Capacity Plus is simple and reliable but a total vendor lock.

The best advice I can generally give anyone though is plan for failure. If you are going to build a system, build it for redundancy failover. Having to deal with occasional busy's on a system that is overbuilt and running slightly under capacity due to a failure isn't nearly as bad as dealing with a system having constant busy's due to being under-sized. A great example of this, a few months ago my NMS reported an outage of 1 of 3 repeaters making up one of my Connect Plus sites. No one ever noticed the outage (repeater smoked a power supply) because I had the site overbuilt by 1 repeater (2 full talk paths).
 

TampaTyron

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I work in the radio industry for a major manufacturer....... If both systems are setup properly by the local shop, then you will be very happy with either one. Kenwood has better audio, but Moto has more capacity (I don't know if the Kenwood solution requires an FB8 license, TRBO does not). If you go through a typical frequency coordinator, then you would pay a few hundred dollars per FCC callsign for the modifications. Your biggest challenge is how to organize all of the talkgroup s people will ask for once you go trunking. Make sure you request some sort of user authentication like RAS or whatever the Kenwood equivalent to keep pirates off the system. TT
 

Project25_MASTR

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Another question I would ask is are you planning single site or multi site?

Reason being, for the price of linked Capacity plus you can get into full fledged Tier 3 trunking from vendors other than Motorola (Hytera, Simoco, Tait). I believe Simoco has the cleanest setup (controllers are integrated to the repeater) for Tier 3 but they are difficult to get any kind of support from at the level currently available from Kenwood and Motorola in the US.

Another thing to keep in mind, Capacity Plus has no form of ID and/or talk group management (aside from RAS). So if someone knows what they are doing, they can pirate the system without too much difficulty and never be detected.

I’m in the process of migrating some airtime Capacity Plus to Connect Plus right now (yes I know Connect Plus is EOL) and having to future proof it all for Capacity Max…fun times.


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lmrtek

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Neither will help with coverage since rf is rf.
If it takes 4 repeaters to cover now, it will take at least 4 digital repeaters.
But Nexedge would be my choice
 

RRR

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NXDN having "better audio" is a matter of opinion. I have heard quite the opposite from many others, and I think Mototrbo (without encryption) has better audio than NXDN.
 

K2NEC

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As many have stated here it is honestly your personal preference hence I will not repeat anything said ;)
That aside I think you should go with the Cap+ just because it is more reliable (I think). Keep in mind I have never used an NXDN system only heard it once or twice. I know that Motorola has some cool features with it's Cap+ radio's and if you have multiple sites then you could have a LCP system. If you have a maintenance department then each radio assigned to a worker could be set to lone worker so if an accident happens and a worker gets injured or unconscious then the radio will automatically go into alarm and alert other users that an employee has been injured. Since it is a university I don't think you would have too much of a problem with people "piggy backing" on your system. They would really have to know what they are doing and spend $300 on an XPR just to get into your system. And if need be you can just add RAS or basic/enhanced privacy encryption. I think Motorola is the reliable solution and again I cannot speak for Kenwood since I have never used their radio's. As MCore mentioned you could also think about Capacity Max (although I cannot tell you much about that). Whatever you choose I hope it works best for your university and will last for years (until some new form of radio comes out then you are screwed haha).
 

mmckenna

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NXDN having "better audio" is a matter of opinion. I have heard quite the opposite from many others, and I think Mototrbo (without encryption) has better audio than NXDN.

True, but it also has to do with the skill of the tech setting up the radios. Having run both side by side, NXDN sounded better.

After running an NexEdge trunked system for over 5 years now, I can tell you I've got them al tweaked out pretty well.
As for encryption, I have both encrypted and unencrypted talk groups and you can't tell the difference between then. The encryption/decryption process doesn't impact audio quality.

I've got an NX-900 mobile in my work truck running on my trunked system, 12.5KHz NexEdge trunking.
I've also go an NX-700 mobile in the work truck running on our public safety systems, 12.5KHz FM.
Both radios connected to identical speakers.
Same dispatchers, same microphones, same dispatch console system. Only difference is one goes into a digital trunked system (including encrypted talk groups) and the other one goes into a voted analog system using a combination of MTR-2000 repeaters/receivers and Quantar repeaters and receivers.
With the same dispatcher talking, the NXDN sounds a bit better to my ears. Like more dynamic range, fuller audio, but it's kind of splitting hairs they are so close.

So, hearsay is not a good comparison. Having run MotoTrbo, NexEdge and analog all side by side, the NXDN sounds better. If someone set up an NXDN system without fully understanding what they were doing, of course it might sound bad, it's what you'd expect. Some technicians didn't make the switch from analog only radios to digital radios very well, and there is some reluctance to do anything other than the absolute minimum to get them going. Spending time getting the audio tweaked out is key.

Of course some of that is the hand held/mobile radios.
A few years back I completed swapping out all the PD radios. Got rid of the MTS-2000 VHF, MCS-2000, XTL-2500's and the XTS-2500's, most portables going in to back up duty, and replaced them all with Kenwood radios.
Hand held radios are all NX-210's running in analog mode.
Mobiles are a mix of TK-5710's and NX-5700's.
Officers were really happy with the improvement in audio quality.
When compared side by side, Kenwood usually gets the nod for better audio on their radios.

But, opinions… yeah.
 

kayn1n32008

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True, but it also has to do with the skill of the tech setting up the radios. Having run both side by side, NXDN sounded better...

When compared side by side, Kenwood usually gets the nod for better audio on their radios.

But, opinions… yeah.

I'm with you on this one. Having used DMR(Both conventional repeated, trunked and simplex) and NXDN(both narrow and very narrow), NXDN wins hands down for audio quality.

Another great feature of NXDN: It is not Motorola.
 
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mmckenna

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Another great feature of NXDN: It is not Motorola.

Which was one of the things that helped seal the deal. After 20 years on a Motorola system and maintenance contract, we'd had enough.
-Trying to figure out who the MRSS was each year was a challenge. Motorola seemed to move it around a lot and didn't always tell us.
-Trying to get service from that one MRSS shop. Getting told we "weren't a priority" got old pretty quick.
-Trying to get service but getting a salesman instead. Very little interest in fixing issues, but a whole lot of interest in selling us new gear.
-Getting told to basically "pack sand" when Motorola didn't feel like helping us.

Left Motorola, never looked back.
 

zsauve

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Thank you to everyone that voiced their opinions regarding our radio system. I honestly am leaning more towards Nexedge as we have more Kenwood Dealers in the area compared to Motorola dealers. On top of that, 2 of the other colleges in Milwaukee use Nexedge on UHF so it would be easier to coordinate with them if the need were to ever arise in the future.
 

kayn1n32008

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NXDN having "better audio" is a matter of opinion. I have heard quite the opposite from many others, and I think Mototrbo (without encryption) has better audio than NXDN.



Have you actually used NXDN at all?


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RRR

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Have you actually used NXDN at all?


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Yep. Both NXDN digital and Mototrbo, thankyaverymuch. And enhanced privacy on 'Trbo -does- have a distinct voice clarity difference.
 

box23

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I have been tasked with upgrading my university's aging analog radio system and and need some opinions. The radio system we currently use 4 repeaters on conventional analog (Motorola GR-1225's & Kenwood TKR-850's). Due to coverage and capacity issues, we are looking to switch to digital and a form of trunking.

DMR isn't limited to just Motorola. Hytera is a leading contender, with both proprietary and Tier III trunking. Both Tait and Simoco also have DMR systems.
 

SAFFA

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You could also look at Kenwood Type D trunking system, cheaper than type C trunking. Very similar in working to mototrbo capacity plus
 

Sonataq14

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Proprietary equipment/software

Both are good systems...but...what you should be looking at is DMR that doesn't require anything proprietary. Nexedge is a technology that cannot communicate with any other technology. You are alone in the world around you. Want to communicate with the school down the street, or another building in the vicinity? You won't be doing that with Nexedge unless they also have Nexedge technology. The technology is very good, but there is no interoperability with any other business, hospital, or entity using a nearby radio system (if you have neighbors you'd like to talk to in emergency situations).

I think you are not looking at all your options based on the magnitude of the system you are considering.

Feel free to reach out to me.

Scott
 
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mmckenna

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Both are good systems...but...what you should be looking at is DMR that doesn't require anything proprietary. Nexedge is a technology that cannot communicate with any other technology. You are alone in the world around you. Want to communicate with the school down the street, or another building in the vicinity? You won't be doing that with Nexedge unless they also have Nexedge technology. The technology is very good, but there is no interoperability with any other business, hospital, or entity using a nearby radio system (if you have neighbors you'd like to talk to in emergency situations).

I think you are not looking at all your options based on the magnitude of the system you are considering.

Feel free to reach out to me.

Scott

No. I think you are misinformed.

Kenwood NexEdge is not a technology that cannot communicate with any others. NXDN and the NXDN Type C and Type D protocols are open. Both Icom and Kenwood make radios that are compatible on either type of trunked system. Kenwood makes and sells DMR radios, as well as radios that will do NXDN, NexEdge as well as DMR and P25, all in one radio. Other manufacturers make NXDN compatible radios.

All Kenwood NXDN radios will do analog, and that's compatible with any other manufacturers analog radio systems.
Step up to the NX-3000 radios and you can have your choice of NXDN, NexEdge Trunking or DMR, as well as analog.
Take another step up to the NX-5000 radios, and you can do all the above plus P25, type 1 and 2.

I'm running a NexEdge trunked system. I use NXDN for simplex and all of our radios have access to analog conventional repeaters. Agencies from outside can easily access our analog repeater and that can be patched at our consoles to the NexEdge talkgroups.

Spreading misleading information doesn't help anyone.
 

Project25_MASTR

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No. I think you are misinformed.



Kenwood NexEdge is not a technology that cannot communicate with any others. NXDN and the NXDN Type C and Type D protocols are open. Both Icom and Kenwood make radios that are compatible on either type of trunked system. Kenwood makes and sells DMR radios, as well as radios that will do NXDN, NexEdge as well as DMR and P25, all in one radio. Other manufacturers make NXDN compatible radios.



All Kenwood NXDN radios will do analog, and that's compatible with any other manufacturers analog radio systems.

Step up to the NX-3000 radios and you can have your choice of NXDN, NexEdge Trunking or DMR, as well as analog.

Take another step up to the NX-5000 radios, and you can do all the above plus P25, type 1 and 2.



I'm running a NexEdge trunked system. I use NXDN for simplex and all of our radios have access to analog conventional repeaters. Agencies from outside can easily access our analog repeater and that can be patched at our consoles to the NexEdge talkgroups.



Spreading misleading information doesn't help anyone.



Correct me if I am wrong, but I am currently under the impression that the only manufacturers currently manufacturing subscribers for the NXDN CAI’s are Kenwood, Icom and Alinco. Icom being the only one of those who doesn’t also offer a DMR Tier II capable subscriber (in the US).

I do love the simplicity of Capacity Plus but a lot to be said about using standards shared across multiple vendors.


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