Isn't this dangerous?

[Danny37]

So a fire department in Elizabeth, NJ uses their trunked p25 talk group for fireground isn't that awfully dangerous? I can't imagine being in a basement of a fire and calling for help only to get an "out of range" error.

I always thought fireground should be analog and simplex with an incident commander controlling the scene. Even P25 conventional simplex makes me feel uneasy for fireground.

Your thoughts? Any FD's near you using trunked talk groups for fireground operations? How do they make out?

 

[zz0468]

So a fire department in Elizabeth, NJ uses their trunked p25 talk group for fireground isn't that awfully dangerous?

Not if it works for them.

 

[Voyager]

Lots of areas do this despite the fact it is against NFPA rules.

 

[bryan_herbert]

All of the fire departments here in Clark County, Nevada do it. They do have a simplex channel they can use when evacuating the high rise resorts, but they rarely have to use it.

 

[mmckenna]

So a fire department in Elizabeth, NJ uses their trunked p25 talk group for fireground isn't that awfully dangerous? I can't imagine being in a basement of a fire and calling for help only to get an "out of range" error.

It's dangerous when it breaks. Until then it's needlessly risky.

Although many departments will come up with arguments about why they need to do it:
Like making sure dispatchers can hear.
Like making sure the traffic is recorded (there are ways to do that locally)
So responding units have a "heads up" about what's happening on scene.

 

[Danny37]

It's dangerous when it breaks. Until then it's needlessly risky.

Although many departments will come up with arguments about why they need to do it:
Like making sure dispatchers can hear.
Like making sure the traffic is recorded (there are ways to do that locally)
So responding units have a "heads up" about what's happening on scene.

That could be easily fixed with a in vehicle repeater, atleast that's how the FDNY does it. It works out pretty well but unless the division chief is onscene you won't hear it.

I don't know something about using a trunked talk group for fireground just makes me shiver, too risky as you said.

 

[Danny37]

All of the fire departments here in Clark County, Nevada do it. They do have a simplex channel they can use when evacuating the high rise resorts, but they rarely have to use it.

They most have some site near the resorts, I can't imagine the RF environment they must be in plus all that steel.

 

[mmckenna]

That could be easily fixed with a in vehicle repeater, atleast that's how the FDNY does it. It works out pretty well but unless the division chief is onscene you won't hear it.

I don't know something about using a trunked talk group for fireground just makes me shiver, too risky as you said.

Yeah, that's an option.

Locally, all public safety is VHF analog. Fire ground is all simplex analog.

Vehicle repeaters work, but in reality dispatchers do not necessarily need to be listening to that. Easy enough for on scene command to just have two radios or switch channels to dispatch if they need something.

Yeah, risky, but to a lot of these guys radios are just magic boxes that make noise. They don't know how they work, and wouldn't necessarily understand the difference between simplex and trunked.

 

[krokus]

So a fire department in Elizabeth, NJ uses their trunked p25 talk group for fireground isn't that awfully dangerous? I can't imagine being in a basement of a fire and calling for help only to get an "out of range" error.

I always thought fireground should be analog and simplex with an incident commander controlling the scene. Even P25 conventional simplex makes me feel uneasy for fireground.

Your thoughts? Any FD's near you using trunked talk groups for fireground operations? How do they make out?

We operate on 800 MHz trunked P25, and command officers do not want to be bothered with using 8Tac for interior operations, even if only on large, commercial structures.

I worry that it will cost a near-miss, or worse, before they listen to sense.

In your case, since you operate on VHF, using a VTac for interior operations is advisable.

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[Danny37]

Yeah, risky, but to a lot of these guys radios are just magic boxes that make noise. They don't know how they work, and wouldn't necessarily understand the difference between simplex and trunked.

Shouldn't department radio techs know this? I'm sure every department has a radio tech (or should have one) this seems like a very dangerous tactic even if they're ignorant to how radios work.

 

[Danny37]

We operate on 800 MHz trunked P25, and command officers do not want to be bothered with using 8Tac for interior operations, even if only on large, commercial structures.

I worry that it will cost a near-miss, or worse, before they listen to sense.

In your case, since you operate on VHF, using a VTac for interior operations is advisable.

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Luckily where I am everything is analog and on UHF. The department I was talking about in the beginning operates on a statewide P25 phase 2 tdma trunked system. The Newark fire department that operates on this same system has a trunked dispatch talk group on the same system but they use 700mhz simplex frequencies for fireground.

 

[davidzimmerman]

cleveland ohio fire department has always used a talkgroup for fire TACs on the old system and still on the NEW system.seems 75% do this on the NEW cleveland radio system.Parma has a Harris Radio System their fireground's go threw a repeater STILL on the radios system.

 

[slicerwizard]

I don't know something about using a trunked talk group for fireground just makes me shiver, too risky as you said.

The locals manage just fine on their 700 MHz P25 systems. On scene repeaters are set up when necessary. PD, FD and EMS unions aren't freaking out, so obviously it works well enough. No doubt, there has been plenty of pre-incident in building coverage testing done. So no need for shivers - at least not here.

 

[Danny37]

The locals manage just fine on their 700 MHz P25 systems. On scene repeaters are set up when necessary. PD, FD and EMS unions aren't freaking out, so obviously it works well enough. No doubt, there has been plenty of pre-incident in building coverage testing done. So no need for shivers - at least not here.

The reason it makes me shiver is because we carry an xts trunked radio for interop. I had a patient in the backyard of a commercial store in order to get to the backyard we had to walk through a walk-in cooler the second I set foot in there the trunked xts let out the "out of range" error. I was looking at the display and the second we stepped out the rssi went to full bars went straight back into the cooler and out of range error literally less than 6 feet away. Our analog radios worked fine, sure the signal dipped abit but could still hear everything and transmit.

 

[Markscan]

When they want to justify something, they’ll say “NFPA requires it”. When they don’t want to do something, they’ll say “NFPA is only a guideline “.


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[mmckenna]

Shouldn't department radio techs know this? I'm sure every department has a radio tech (or should have one) this seems like a very dangerous tactic even if they're ignorant to how radios work.

Depends on the department, depends on the tech, depends on who built the file for the radios, depends on whoever runs the fire department.

Some radio techs are just guys that do what they are told. Some don't care.
Some of it could be that the radios actually do have a simplex talk around channel (and they should) but the fire department has either chosen not to use it, or they are just being too lazy to switch over to it.

Or they just don't care.

 

[crazyboy]

Lots of areas do this despite the fact it is against NFPA rules.

False information, NFPA does not require you to use a simplex channel for fire ground use. The NFPA requirement is that there be a analog simplex frequency available, there is no requirement to use it on the fire ground.

I’m not saying I agree for the record, I’m all for simplex fire ground channels.

 

[DaveNF2G]

Shouldn't department radio techs know this? I'm sure every department has a radio tech (or should have one) this seems like a very dangerous tactic even if they're ignorant to how radios work.

The techs are not on the fireground.

 

[AI7PM]

It'll take a surviving family"s suit, post incident and death, for the bean counters and non savvy to get the flick.

 

[zz0468]

Some of it could be that the radios actually do have a simplex talk around channel (and they should) but the fire department has either chosen not to use it, or they are just being too lazy to switch over to it.

Or they just don't care.

I'm sure you're aware of this..

Frequently, agencies (PD, FD, etc) want traffic logged and recorded, as well as monitored in the dispatch center, so trunked fireground channels are assigned.

Fire folk usually seem pretty radio savvy and won't hesitate to switch to direct when needed. At least, that's been my experience.