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apco25

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MS1170

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Can you clone one radio onto another and have both be on the system or is there no way and both radio's have to be put into the system individually?
 
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N_Jay

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MS1170 said:
Can you clone one radio onto another and have both be on the system or is there no way and both radio's have to be put into the system individually?

That is a product question, not a P25 question.
 

wlmr

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MS1170 said:
Can you clone one radio onto another and have both be on the system or is there no way and both radio's have to be put into the system individually?

Bad idea to clone IDs for P25 trunked systems. The system keeps track of what site an ID is affiliated with. If either radio roams to another site the one left behind may stop receiving audio on the talkgroup it's listening to. Even if they're on the same site, if either radio switches talkgroups, the radio that didn't switch will be left not hearing anything on the original talkgroup.

(And unless you're the system administrator, you most likely will learn how long a reach they can have when your radio goes dead without warning.)

If you work with/for the trunked system owners, get a separate ID for each radio. (They won't run out of IDs easily, they can program over 16 million separate IDs.) If you don't, take the easy route and get a scanner capable of tracking P25 trunked systems.

You don't want to be the reason someone holding a radio gets hurt because their radio is acting "funny" & vital info doesn't get heard.
 

Raccon

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N_Jay said:
That is a product question, not a P25 question.
Not necessarily. The system may have mechanisms to prevent or detect cloning. If the P25 system for exmple authenticates the radios then it is a P25 system question, not that of a particular product.
 
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N_Jay

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Raccon said:
Not necessarily. The system may have mechanisms to prevent or detect cloning. If the P25 system for exmple authenticates the radios then it is a P25 system question, not that of a particular product.

AND

Cloning may mean copying of operational modes and not Unit ID.

So it is a PRODUCT Question whether you can do it.

In general any multi-site system will have problems with duplicate IDs.
 

INDY72

Monitoring since 1982, using radios since 1991.
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Not to mention that most system operators are not going to allow Cloned ID's to mess with thier system and quickly Stun/Kill the radios. Unlike mixed mode "legacy" type systems where one could set up cloned radios with TX inhibited, P-25 systems query all the radios on the net, and even if the radio is TX inhibited, it still affiliates automatically. (At least on Motorola ASTRO-25 systems, not sure how M/A-Com, and the new EFJ P-25, and IP25 systems do thiers.)
 

Raccon

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N_Jay said:
AND

Cloning may mean copying of operational modes and not Unit ID.

So it is a PRODUCT Question whether you can do it.
1. I said 'not necessarily'. Your answer said it's only a product question, thus excluding the system.
2. What do you mean by 'operational modes'? (I am not familiar with the term though perhaps I know it under a different name)

In general any multi-site system will have problems with duplicate IDs.
Systems that authenticate do not have 'problems' because a duplicated ID would not get access to the system in the first place.
You can clone the ID but not the authentication keys. If you can, well, then you have a lot of other problems to worry about ...
 

richardc63

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MS1170 said:
Can you clone one radio onto another and have both be on the system or is there no way and both radio's have to be put into the system individually?

Hi,

I've read the replies so will try to answer your question a little differently...

If you are asking whether you can clone the radio profile from one radio to another the answer is yes. The very last thing you do as you clone the new radio is to enter its new id. Therefore it is in all ways identical to the first, except for the ID. The id needs to be a valid id for the system. You cannot just pick a number, any number, and expect it will work on the system as it will most likely end up inhibited sooner rather than later.

If you are asking whether you can have the same ID in both radios, again the answer is yes, however they both cannot function correctly on the system if switched on & affiliate simultaneously. The system will track the last radio to affiliate, resulting in the first radio no longer receiving. You should never do this deliberately- it happens by accident &/or maliciously- but no responsible programmer would deliberately do this.

Cheers,


Richard
 

fineshot1

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Raccon said:
If the P25 system for exmple authenticates the radios then it is a P25 system question, not that of a particular product.

"Authentication" last time I delt with network issues was used only in the cellular industry networks and virtually eliminated cloned cell phones. Did this network function migrate over to the SMR and Land Mobile industries? Just asking cause I have not worked network issues in a few years.
 
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N_Jay

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fineshot1 said:
"Authentication" last time I delt with network issues was used only in the cellular industry networks and virtually eliminated cloned cell phones. Did this network function migrate over to the SMR and Land Mobile industries? Just asking cause I have not worked network issues in a few years.

Not that I know of.

At least not "authentication" in cellular terms.
 

Raccon

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fineshot1 said:
"Authentication" last time I delt with network issues was used only in the cellular industry networks and virtually eliminated cloned cell phones. Did this network function migrate over to the SMR and Land Mobile industries? Just asking cause I have not worked network issues in a few years.
TETRA for example does authenticate (and encrypt). Both functions though are optional, but encryption requires authentication. TETRAPOL networks use authentication, too.

N_Jay said:
Not that I know of.

At least not "authentication" in cellular terms.
What is ' "authentication" in cellular terms ' by N_Jay?
 
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ALLPLOWEDOUT

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p25 cloning question

True P25 subscriber units have an ESN which gets authenticated. It cannot be duplicated, at least with conventional means.

Thats IN addition to the other parameters such as the radios serial number, etc....that are needed to properly access a true P25 system.

Hope that helps.
 
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N_Jay

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Raccon said:
TETRA for example does authenticate (and encrypt). Both functions though are optional, but encryption requires authentication. TETRAPOL networks use authentication, too.


What is ' "authentication" in cellular terms ' by N_Jay?

What TETRA and iDEN, and most cellular systems do; where the handset and the system have a "shared secret" to encrypt the transfer of unit ID information.

I was referring to US centric trunked systems like Smartnet, EDACS, and P25.

Seems from another post that P25 does have authentification. (You learn something new every day)
Is it "required" or part of Secure systems only?
 

SCPD

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N_Jay said:
Seems from another post that P25 does have authentification. (You learn something new every day) Is it "required" or part of Secure systems only?
Normal use seems to be ... unit registration. The system can accept or deny the registration request at face value. The registration request is not challenge / response so it's not authentication. However, for the WACN, sysid and radio id to be programmed into the radio requires a system key, smart card, or dongle - depending on vendor & software.

The controller can issue a command requesting the radio's unique ESN. Normally this isn't done (I've never seen one in practice). If you trust the radio's firmware to do the right thing, then it's secure.

-rick
 
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