Kenwood NXDN Digital System

[902]

From the Private Wireless Forum - Kenwood has a new 12.5 and 6.25 kHz digital radio system it will offer for conventional and trunking on VHF and UHF (their mobile model numbers are 700 and 800, but those are VHF and UHF radios, not 700 and 800 radios).

The system appears to be proprietary and not P25 (there is no reference to P25). A suite of accessories includes NXDN encryption as well as AES encryption as an option.

System brochure

Portables

Mobiles

Base/ Repeater

 

[fwradio]

The only radio companies that believe in making anything proprietary is Motorola and Macom. Even Motorola's P25 stuff is loaded with features that are proprietary to Motorola. Kenwood and Icom worked together on NXDN, but it is an open European standard for Digital Mobile Radio (DMR).

NXDN is not P25, that is why there is no reference to P25. It was developed for commercial use. If you look at the radio features and the network architecture, it is very obvious that this would work better than P25 for most public safety agencies. The cost of the radios is 3-4 times less than P25 trunking equipment, and the network cost is around 10% of the cost of P25 trunking infrastructure.

Remember, P25 is old enough to vote and drink now. NXDN is cutting edge; it blows P25 away.

 

[ShawnCowden]

Do u all think any scanner will follow this
maybe be able to upgrade the new scanners to monitor this ?
Also what is it TDMA ? CDMA ? IDEN ? what form of digital is it ?

 

[fwradio]

Do u all think any scanner will follow this
maybe be able to upgrade the new scanners to monitor this ?
Also what is it TDMA ? CDMA ? IDEN ? what form of digital is it ?

It is the simplest form... 4 level FSK. There are no timeslots (it is FDMA). There is, however, a provision in the protocol for encryption (only about 32,000 different codes). While it might be possible to get a radio programmed up and through a lot of trial and error discover the encryption code, it would also be illegal.

 

[N4DES]

It uses the AMBE vocoder, similar to the amateur D-Star offering except that the repeater is able to pass analog and it is capable of LTR. Looks like pretty nicely designed equipment.

 

[ShawnCowden]

I though it said optional encryption ?
If this is the case then cant it be legally monitable ?

 

[fwradio]

I though it said optional encryption ?
If this is the case then cant it be legally monitable ?

The Kenwood radios have the encryption option in there already. It is optional if you program it to be used or not. As far as monitoring, I believe the FCC rules state that interception of ANY digital encrypted communications is illegal.

 

[n1das]

The Kenwood radios have the encryption option in there already. It is optional if you program it to be used or not. As far as monitoring, I believe the FCC rules state that interception of ANY digital encrypted communications is illegal.

ECPA '86 states that, not FCC rules. Has absolutely nothing to do with FCC at all. The FCC didn't create this. The whole ECPA'86 mess was created by Congress so the cell phone industry can perpetuate their commercially-serving lies about privacy to make cell phones appear more attractive to uninformed (and mis-informed) users. However, this is totally OT...

Monitoring NXDN digital using another ICOM or KENWOOD NXDN digital radio will be sort of like listening to P25 on our P25-capable scanners. Clear mode stuff will be heard fine but any ENC traffic heard may either stay muted or simply be garbled up like P25 ENC traffic heard on a P25 scanner....unless you are lucky enough to have the same ENC key programmed into the ICOM or KENWOOD NXDN radio.

I'm in the wait and see mode as to whether or not this standard takes off and becomes popular in the USA. If so, then I'll someday be in the market for some NXDN radios. I've gotten my hands on a pair of protos of the UHF NXDN portable at a trade show a few months ago. NIIIIIIICE!!! They powered up but software-wise they weren't yet set up to talk to each other. The Kenwood rep there had very little information at the time.

As for future scanners having NXDN capability...it could happen someday but won't have any ability to program any encryption key. A big obstacle right now is lack of market demand for NXDN digital capability in scanners. As the NXDN users proliferate in the future, market demand for NXDN capability in scanners should also develop. I know I'll be in the market for some NXDN radios from KENWOOD if NXDN digital takes off...I won't wait for scanners to have the capability.

 

[n1das]

Kenwood and Icom worked together on NXDN, but it is an open European standard for Digital Mobile Radio (DMR).

I seriously hope NXDN catches on in the USA and becomes popular. Then maybe we'll see future scanners having NXDN digital capability.

 

[902]

The only radio companies that believe in making anything proprietary is Motorola and Macom. Even Motorola's P25 stuff is loaded with features that are proprietary to Motorola. Kenwood and Icom worked together on NXDN, but it is an open European standard for Digital Mobile Radio (DMR).

NXDN is not P25, that is why there is no reference to P25. It was developed for commercial use. If you look at the radio features and the network architecture, it is very obvious that this would work better than P25 for most public safety agencies. The cost of the radios is 3-4 times less than P25 trunking equipment, and the network cost is around 10% of the cost of P25 trunking infrastructure.

Remember, P25 is old enough to vote and drink now. NXDN is cutting edge; it blows P25 away.

I live most of that. I have a proprietary derivative of P25 from one specific manufacturer (you may do a good job guessing which one) and I know many of the people who've sent their kids to college based on their work in P25. I missed that boat, myself, but no doubt there will be another opportunity to get well-off in the radio business eventually (it certainly doesn't come working in the public sector).

So, is NXDN compatible with the Icom 6.25 product (and somewhat of a derivative of DSTAR)?

Network deployment is another touchy issue.

 

[fwradio]

The term NXDN is being used by both Kenwood and Icom. They worked together on them and both are saying that they are compatible with each other. I have been told by some at Icom that it is based off of the same technology as D-Star.

 

[RADIOMAN_NYC]

NXDN & Kenwood - Icom compatability

We have a pilot system of NXDN up and running in the NYC metro area for the reason of evaluation and testing. We are closely in touch with both the Kenwood systems group and the boys from Icom. As it stands right now, the Kenwood and Icom units are compilable only in the conventional mode of operation. We are using the NXDN trunking mode because of its features and for now Icom says that they have no plans for making their trunking version work with the Kenwood. As for the performance, we are testing it under the absolute worst possible configuration (intentionally) just to see what it can do. This is what I have up and running. We have an exclusive frequency in the "T" band (470 MHz) and it's a 25 KHz freq.
I am running the test assuming that all we have is a 12.5 KHz channel, and we are attempting to get 2 usable 6.25 Khz channels out of it. To do this, I took our center frequency, using .003125 offsets as center channels, and programmed the 2 repeaters as such. I took the output of each power amp @ 100 Watts, and feed them each through a dual isolator and then into a hybrid coupler, and I'm getting about 39 Watts output from each unit out of the hybrid. I have this single output feed from the hybrid connected to a port on my antenna combiner which goes first through an isolator, and then through 2 pass cavities into the Tx antenna.
Sounds pretty lossy right ???? Guess what, it's outperforming my 25 KHz channels on the same antenna network !!!!! That's right 6.25 KHz digital under the worst conditions possible, is out talking my 25 KHz analog system !!!

More to follow, we are still waiting for the IP infrastructure to be delivered from Kenwood to test multi-site perfoirmance.

 

[DaveNF2G]

Oh, boy, yet another proprietary, non-interoperable digital protocol. Kenwood and Icom need to be slapped upside the head.

 

[citylink_uk]

It's very good technology for sure, but if the age of digital takes over as the dominant form for PMR radio then the most basic interoperability that we take for granted now will be made redundant.

I can get any of 10's of different manufacturer’s radios working together. As long as they are in the same frequency band there’s no stopping analogue.

Unless we establish a worldwide standard all we will be achieving is limiting our choice of manufactures and in the end, letting them dictate pricing to us because of lack of competition. I notice some agencies are already starting to wade through the smoke screen that is the word 'interoperability' and 'open standards'.

Take Motorola and P25 as an example. They are selling systems using these two buzzwords, but when the agencies want to see what other manufactures P25 radios are like it becomes clear that there are so many proprietary features mixed in that it becomes impossible!

Back to DMR. All these new commercial digital systems are based somewhat on the ESTI standard but this doesn't mean they are compatible in anyway in reality!

Interesting stuff!

 

[greenthumb]

Oh, boy, yet another proprietary, non-interoperable digital protocol. Kenwood and Icom need to be slapped upside the head.

The target market for these products (business/industrial/land transportation) does not require the interoperability and open protocols needed in public safety. This technology is providing more spectral efficiency and talk paths per channel than P25 is as well as getting these users to 6.25 kHz equivalency instead of 12.5 kHz then 6.25 kHz for narrowbanding. For these markets that makes sense and these manufacturers should actually be applauded instead of "slapped upside the head" as suggested.

 

[RADIOMAN_NYC]

Well said, Greenthumb

I could not agree with you more "GREENTHUMB",

This is indeed a product that can and should increase spectrum efficiency. It is not really intended for the "Public Safety" sector where inter-op is going to be a key feature. It would be nice if the P.S. market could come upon a standard that would be accepted by all, but let's face it, NEVER going to happen. That will be something that software defined radio will solve and we are well on the way to having that available to the market.

Now back to the NXDN technology, we have tested Moto Turbo, and other options for the best way to pave the road for the rest of the non P.S. market, and it looks like NXDN Trunking wins hands down. The features, spectrum efficiency, and the potential for wide area, multi site infrastructure are a winning idea. With a little help from the FCC, if they can ever get their system tweaked for 6.25 licensing, this will be a great system.

As it stands right now, there are some limitations to the NXDN technology that is making it a little difficult, but Kenwood is listening to the dealers (we hope), to try and resolve these issues. We just had a 2 hour conference call the other day with about 12 of the largest system operators on the east coast (& a few from the west as well) to all get together as "One Voice" so Kenwood will see what they have to loose if they don't make some changes quickly. I won't discuss the particulars at this point in time, but as issues are resolved, I will keep the forum informed. Of course one of things we discussed is pricing of the system infrastructure and end user equipment, as we believe that they are both to high for the current target market.

From our point of view, this system could be built out to provide a wide area trunked network with intelligent user registration, ESN validation, GPS deployment, text messaging, and clear voice communications. This could very well be what many dealers have been waiting for, which is a way to replace the dreaded Passport networks that many have built, but few have yet to see a profit from. It is also a great solution for current LTR Trunked operators to convert to, as the transition from one system to the other will be easy because the radios are multi function, so we can put the radios in the customers hands today, and they will work on their current system now, and also on the new NXDN as it's deployed.

I think we should all use caution before bashing Kenwood about the "proprietary technology" and look more towards the potential that this new format may bring to the industry.

 

[letarotor]

Suspiciously, the more I read, this is sounding more and more like a commerical......

 

[RADIOMAN_NYC]

Letarotor, it's no commercial !!!

Suspiciously, the more I read, this is sounding more and more like a commerical......

I can assure you that I have no allegiance to Kenwood nor any other manufacturer, I am one of the founding partners in my company and also the lead R.F. Engineer. When a product comes out that I think may be of interest to me, we jump in head first. We are one of the first to have the NXDN system up and running and my job is to "pick it apart". I'm the one that's first in line with the manufacturer's to tell them what they did wrong. This time they for the most part,they got it right ! I do have many complaints right now, that I have addressed to the Kenwood boys, but like I said, I won't discuss them at this point in time as to be fair with them and not turn this into a bashing. Trust me, if they don't fix things, you will see me bashing away and letting everyone know about it. For now it's got great potential, let's hope they make some changes, we can sure use a product like that in our market.

 

[letarotor]

Fair enough Sir. I'm always skeptical of a new product until it is in full blown production. I have attended a lot of conventions and conferences over the years where manufacturers use the opportunity to launch a "new" product and make all kinds of promises, suck buyers in and then not have the product even come close to expectations. It's nice to see what they have coming up in the offering but I've learned the hard way to take a wait and see attitude about "new" stuff.

Mark

 

[fineshot1]

Just wondering if there are any updates on this from RADIOMAN_NYC as I found this interesting reading.