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KENWOOD TK-5210/TK-5310 P25 portables

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n1das

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Anybody out there have any KENWOOD TK-5210 (VHF) or TK-5310 (UHF) portables in service?

I'm looking for reviews and opinions on how they are holding up, P25 audio quality, battery life, Tx/RX performance, and overall general comments about them. I'm also curious what people think of them compared to other P25 portables out there, like an ICOM IC-F70DT or a Motorola XTS2500.

TIA.
 

kg4uad

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n1das said:
Anybody out there have any KENWOOD TK-5210 (VHF) or TK-5310 (UHF) portables in service?

I'm looking for reviews and opinions on how they are holding up, P25 audio quality, battery life, Tx/RX performance, and overall general comments about them. I'm also curious what people think of them compared to other P25 portables out there, like an ICOM IC-F70DT or a Motorola XTS2500.

TIA.

The 5210/5310's are as good or better than the Motorola equivalent. Certainly more cost effective initally and a much easier to navigate the Zone/Channel menu. I haven't heard of any failures i would say the Battery would be the weak link in my opinion (or who knows maybe its a P25 thing) the 5210 uses the KNB-32N which is a 2500mah Ni-MH battery, by all rights a beefy sucker that should get the job done... well it doesnt. youll be lucky to get 10hrs from the pack with a very light duty cycle(aka scanner mode). I would say closer to 4-5hrs of moderate use. This same battery pack is what is used on the 2180/3180's and with the VGS-1 installed the 2180's milk the bone marrow quickly out of the pack. the 5210 might do alot better in analog mode im sure it would but whats the point then- get a 2180. Im also sure that kenwood dealers would completely bristle up and deny this but its been my personal observations of both model types. Oh yeah dont even dream of going with the KNB-33L Li-ion 1700mah although it cuts the radios overall weight in half the same occurs to the already sub-standard battery life. One other thing- no need for a low battery indicator for either the 5210 or the 2180 cuz when its over its over and both will fall flat on there face when the voltage drops below threshold.

TaTa

Kg4uad
 

n1das

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kg4uad said:
The 5210/5310's are as good or better than the Motorola equivalent. Certainly more cost effective initally and a much easier to navigate the Zone/Channel menu. I haven't heard of any failures i would say the Battery would be the weak link in my opinion (or who knows maybe its a P25 thing) the 5210 uses the KNB-32N which is a 2500mah Ni-MH battery, by all rights a beefy sucker that should get the job done... well it doesnt. youll be lucky to get 10hrs from the pack with a very light duty cycle(aka scanner mode). I would say closer to 4-5hrs of moderate use.

Hi,

Thanks for the info. I'm already *painfully* aware of how P25 portables tend to be battery hogs. I have a pair of ICOM IC-F70DT portables and it's a similar story with battery life...substandard but manageable (plan ahead and keep a spare pack handy). My P25 use is for Amateur Radio as I've been bitten by the P25 bug. :)

I recall reading somewhere (batlabs maybe?) that the Motorola P25 portables (XTS2500, XTS5000) now have an optional 4000mAh (4 Ah) battery pack. I think the increased appetite for batteries is a P25 thing due to all the DSP horsepower required plus "creeping elegance" in the design. I would expect battery consumption to get worse with P25 portables used on a trunked system....they can't take advantage of any battery saver features because they have to remain "awake" at all times while on the network.

Motorola appears to be responding to the short battery life issue by coming out with a 4Ah pack. ICOM's F70DT/F80DT portables come standard with a 1600mAh pack (sucks!) and a 2100 or 2500 mAh is the optional hi-capacity pack. ICOM recently increased the hi-cap pack to 3000mAh. Battery chemistries are constantly being improved and the radio manufacturers appear to be responding to the need, so I hope KENWOOD gets a higher capacity pack out soon.

As for KENWOOD audio, how is the P25 receive audio? KENWOOD's recent line of commercial radios (TK-2140/3140, TK-2160/3160, TK-2170/3170, etc.) all have excellent transmit and receive analog audio and KENWOOD clearly advertises them as having superior audio. I would expect a TK-5210 or TK-5310 to have similar audio.

Also, a feature I'm looking for with P25 audio is automatic gain control (AGC) for the receive audio to smooth out wild variations in P25 volume levels. My ICOM F70DT portables don't have it and the P25 receive volume is often all over the place. When I listen to NHSP (programmed as Rx-only), troopers often have very low volume (maybe talking softly or away from the mic) and dispatch is often loud enough to blast you out of the car. My RadioShack PRO-96 scanner has an AGC function feature for the P25 audio and it works excellent. On my scanner I hear all P25 audio at roughly the same volume and it compensates pretty well for somebody talking softly or away from the mic. No blasting and fading of P25 audio levels on the Pro-96. It also responds quickly to sudden changes in volume levels. I've found I actually like listening to P25 audio on my Pro-96 better than on the ICOM F70. I'm wondering if the KENWOODs have a similar feature. I don't know if the Motorolas have something like this or not. I suspect Icom didn't implement any AGC function for the receive audio because it's not part of the P25 standard and if KENWOOD and Motorola have such a feature, it's an enhancement they did on their own.

As for the 5210/5310's ruggeness, I recently held one in my hand and it has the usual KENWOOD rugged feel. Hopefully they are as rugged as they feel. My ICOM F70 portables feel cheap and chintzy by comparison but the F70 is still plenty rugged.

As for failures, I've got 2 ICOM F70DT portables and I've had two failures already. One of them totally lost all P25 capability (analog still worked fine) and it was replaced under warranty. Now here it is about a year or so later and the replacement recently died with the same P25 failure plus a PLL lock failure in the receiver. It will transmit analog fine but any receive frequency in the 151-154MHz range is totally dead. The PLL is unlocked for any receive freq in this range and the channel display flashes on this channels to indicate the lock failure. Both of my F70 portables have the same firmware and are programmed the same from the same file. The older portable is working fine and the newer one (the replacement for the first P25 failure) is dead. It's been sent back to ICOM by my dealer for repair (or replacement...AGAIN!). ARRGGHHH!!!!! I don't know whether it will be covered under warranty or not. I think I'm all done with ICOM. There's also enough little things I haven't liked about the radio to make me look at other P25 portables. KENWOOD and Motorola are on my list.

I have a growing need for P25 on UHF and I've been looking at the KENWOOD TK-5310 as a possibility. Whatever I eventually go with will definitely NOT be an ICOM!! I already have some Kenwood TK-3170 portables which I love and use them on GMRS (I am licensed), so I'm already familiar with KENWOOD stuff. I'm also looking at the TK-5310 because I've been gradually getting away from Motorola and ICOM and going with KENWOOD radios.

Again thanks for the info!
 
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kg4uad

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"Motorola appears to be responding to the short battery life issue by coming out with a 4Ah pack. ICOM's F70DT/F80DT portables come standard with a 1600mAh pack (sucks!) and a 2100 or 2500 mAh is the optional hi-capacity pack. ICOM recently increased the hi-cap pack to 3000mAh. Battery chemistries are constantly being improved and the radio manufacturers appear to be responding to the need, so I hope KENWOOD gets a higher capacity pack out soon."

Thats good to hear and im glad someone else out there realizes that there is a sacrifice when useing a digital mode as far as the Battery life is concerned..however... I used to be a hardcore functionality Ham by which i mean i didnt care at all to sport a big nasty "brick" radio with the aux battery backup in the fanny pack. After extreme hazing, being passed over for dates and actually owning smaller radios like the yaesu vx-6 and kenwood 2140 im spoiled rotten on the ultra compact size now. A tk-270 or ht-1250 is about the limit i can stand anymore and when i purchased my tk-2180 my very first impression was "wow what a monster" so much were the days of jetting up to the grocery store in my russell sweat shorts for a gallon of milk for fear of the constant cinch it back up factor. As far as I see all of the P25 radios out there are "belt dependant" and with the advent of a 4000mah battery it seems we are making evolutionary steps backwards in time. All thats missing is bringing back telescopic antennas, I think its great the big 2 of 3 are coming out with a quick fixs such as far as beefer batteries but everybody needs to get back to the drawing boards to solve the voltage consumption issues, comeon if Blackberry can do it I know they can if they try.

"As for KENWOOD audio, how is the P25 receive audio? KENWOOD's recent line of commercial radios (TK-2140/3140, TK-2160/3160, TK-2170/3170, etc.) all have excellent transmit and receive analog audio and KENWOOD clearly advertises them as having superior audio. I would expect a TK-5210 or TK-5310 to have similar audio."

Oh Yeah, Its really good. Of course im partial to Kenwood anyway but one thing ive noticed is that Kenwood radios seem to give a more "full fidelity" sound rather than the more compressed and over modulated Motorola characteristic. I think motorola believes that doing this somehow improves range alittle at least in analog world but a match up between a motorola (XTS2500, XTS5000) vs. a kenwood 5210/5310 series i can hear the diffrence and kenwood comes out with my thumbs up. Icom is not big around here as far as type accepted so i can give no testimony.

"Also, a feature I'm looking for with P25 audio is automatic gain control (AGC) for the receive audio to smooth out wild variations in P25 volume levels."

I cant help you with this feature i honestly dont know if kenwood has got it. after going round and round with the dealer boys they do tell me that the one advantage of kenwood over motorola is that the kenwoods are firmware flashable to become phase 4 compliant where as the motorolas are what they are and when the next phase is incorporated then scrap your current rig and by the next latest and greatest. I can kinda buy into this from what ive seen of motorolas marketing practices in the past.

"As for the 5210/5310's ruggeness, I recently held one in my hand and it has the usual KENWOOD rugged feel. Hopefully they are as rugged as they feel. My ICOM F70 portables feel cheap and chintzy by comparison but the F70 is still plenty rugged."

I think the 5210/5310 are plenty rugged however i give cudos to motorola for a more attractive overall appearance. I think the 5210 lookes like a mutated 2180 and it does not have clean lines at all. with its battery and the unnecessary "knob guards" i find it quite ugly. The only redeemable factor is the submersible "option" that costs like 250.00 more that the "driven rain" spec G.I. model and i dont appreciate that this option can only be added at the factory due to the vacuum seal they do to it. Oh yea forget about field programability and bench work yourself or the "submersibility goes out the window.

Kenwoods got the concept but they have a long way to go. I think they all do and im just scared that kenwood will only come out with one more analog/P25 capable radio before they go all digital at which point I will be heart broken.

73's

Kg4uad
 

dmonty83

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...

Does this radio digitize the audio like the XTS 2500/5000. I notice with the XTS 2500/5000 that there appears to be an audio delay.
 
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kg4uad

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dmonty83 said:
Does this radio digitize the audio like the XTS 2500/5000. I notice with the XTS 2500/5000 that there appears to be an audio delay.

Yep, a definate delay. Kenwoods like a half second.
 

thomasyu

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Does any one know what a 5310 runs in the low split with the limited keypad? Thanks
 

Grog

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Also, the motorola battery is 4150mah. There are aftermarket up to around 5000mah.
 

rmiles

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Grog said:
Also, the motorola battery is 4150mah. There are aftermarket up to around 5000mah.

Check out this monster from Batteryzone;
http://www.batteryzone.com/detail.tpl?SKU=BZ8610XXLI&_fid=50304

Description
Super Extended Li-Ion Replacement Battery - Far Exceeds the NTN8610

Specifications
Chemistry: Li-Ion
Voltage: 7.5 V
Capacity: 7800 mAh
Weight: 0.6 lbs.
Brand: BatteryZone
BatteryZone Number: BZ8610XXLI

BatteryZone Price:
Price Each: $99
 

ICP114

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Tk5210

I am wondering does the tk 5210 do the 6.25 steps and is the software hard to buy like the big M.

what does the tk 5210 go for$$--??
 
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$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $

Last I checked the transciever alone, with no LCD or PF keys was in the neighborhood of $1300 dollars with the LCD and full keypad model being $1900. NOW, bear in mind that is the transciever and belt clip ONLY.... NO battery, NO charger, NO antenna.

HOWEVER.. someone on Ebay has the LCD full keypad model up for $885. And for $125 more you can get the antenna, battery and charger.

The software is a different story. I've looked it up and asked my radio tech. It's $400 from Kenwood.
 

n1das

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Bump......

BUMP again...I just picked up a brand new KENWOOD TK-5210K3 VHF P25 portable to replace my ICOM IC-F70DT portables. I sold both F70 portables a while ago. The K3 version of the TK-5210 has the LCD display and full 16 key DTMF pad. I love the KENWOOD and am happy to be rid of the >POS< ICOM F70 portables.

KENWOOD P25 audio quality vs. ICOM P25 audio: From initial tests I've done and from monitoring some local public safety stuff in my area, the KENWOOD P25 receive audio BLOWS THE ICOM AWAY. It's also plenty LOUD and easy to hear when you crank the volume up. The KENWOOD has automatic gain control (AGC) in the receive audio like the Motorolas do to help keep the volume from being all over the place. The ICOM doesn't have this feature and is one of my pet peeves about the radio.

When I've listened to NHSP in the past on an ICOM F70 portable, the volume levels have been all over the place. For example at any given volume control setting, an officer on a mobile or portable will talk and have low but clear audio. Then the dispatcher comes on and talks with a blast of EXTREMELY LOUD and distorted audio. Having an AGC function in the P25 receive audio would help smooth out the large volume differences. NHSP has since adjusted their dispatch console levels better but the volume levels between different units are still all over the place. Even my RS PRO-96 digital scanner has the audio AGC function and it works really well. It shouldn't be much to ask for a genuine P25 radio to have it too. The ICOM F70 definitely doesn't have this feature and makes it harder to listen to. The KENWOOD has AGC in the P25 receive audio to smooth out large volume differences and it works well. The ICOM F70 doesn't have it. The KENWOOD is definnitely a winner in my book!

Battery life so far is still too early to tell as I'm operating it with Battery Save = OFF and it's still on its maiden battery charge after 7 hours of monitoring and very little transmitting and battery meter still showing a full battery. I have the 2500mAh hi-cap NiMH battery, the highest capacity battery currently available for it, IIRC.

I've literally had this radio up and running for less than 24 hours.....I just picked it up last evening. I'll eventually have more experiences to share and opinions of it after I've owned it for a while.
 
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n1das

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David,

How's the -5210 performed over the last two weeks? Battery life??

Battery life has been good so far! Actually a lot better than I expected. My ICOM F70DT portables were real hogs compared to the 5210. I ran the 5210 for a while with the battery save feature OFF. With no transmit and fresh off the charge, I can easily get 16 hours out of it. The most I've gotten so far with battery save OFF and no transmit is 22 hours and it was blinking low battery status but still alive!

I have since turned battery save ON and programmed it to MEDIUM battery save. You have a choice of a short, medium, or long save interval. The medium setting gives it around a 400ms sleep time interval. The awake time interval is short between sleep intervals but I don't know how long the awake time interval is. The medium setting is a good compromise between having good battery saving without missing too much of the beginning of a transmission heard. I think the sleep time intervals are about the same as other Kenwoods where short=200ms, medium=400ms, and long=800ms. The battery life is noticeably better with battery save ON and now it's harder to tell what the battery life will be.

I have some 2 meter ham freqs in it and I used it a LOT over the past weekend. I did a fair amount of transmitting with it and also did a lot of listening too. It got a real workout on Saturday and Sunday and I dropped it into the charger late Saturday night to have it ready for Sunday. I gave it some use on both days and had no trouble getting it to last through the day on both days.

For receive performance, it's second to none! I can tell it has a HOT receiver in it and it's one that has a *REAL* front end to it. It works well in dense RF-soup environments like the best commercial grade equipment is supposed to work. The factory default carrier squelch setting is close to the edge and is about right. I haven't found myself wanting to give it a tweak and want to just leave it alone at the default setting. The stock standard rubber duck antenna works well and there are other antennas available for it. The antenna connector is a recessed male SMA connector, so it's possible to use other antennas on it. Receive audio is plenty loud when you crank the volume up. It's easy to hear in high noise environments.

Transmit audio is good and sounds like how other commercial Kenwoods sound.....GOOD!

Overall I'm very impressed and very happy with the TK-5210K3. :D
(K3 = full keypad & LCD display version)
 
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firetaz173

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Kenwood new radios

Kenwood has already come out with ANOTHER digital platform, rather than P25. The NexEdge series is a much more compact, but still reliable portable. The digital platform still puts a damper on the battery, but not quite as bad as my 5210. as for clarity, the P25 style radios have a long way to go with filtering out background noise and such. The NexEdge digital seems to do a little better job with that. Our department has both, trialing them in both digital and analog mode. Overall, they both perform about the same. Just a significant cost difference with the NX-200 compared to the TK-5210.

HaVEN'T tried the 2 different digital platforms to see if they're compatible yet......any takers on that project?
 

firetaz173

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IF you need software, I do have a copy I received from a ham in Washington that I can get to you.

let me know. \


Timm
KC9ERA
 

N2DLX

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P25 and NEXEDGE are not compatible in any way, shape, or form. Different bandwidth, different modulation, different protocol, different vocoder. You're right though, that the NEXEDGE radios are better at filtering out noise than the P25 radios, due almost entirely to the different vocoders. IMBE, used in P25, is terrible at picking out the users voice among background noise, and often will send just the noise and not the user's voice. The AMBE+2 vocoder in the NXDN radios is better at suppressing the noise and sending the actual voice. I also notice that the audio feedback from 2 digital radios is filtered out as best as possible by the radios.

In other words, if you transmit within earshot of another NXDN radio, and start to get that delayed feedback screeching, the radios will lower their mic gain (it seems) so they don't continue amplifying the screech. After a few screeches, the radios will eliminate it altogether. On P25 radios, the screech will totally ruin a transmission and gets so bad it wipes out the user's voice. Newer P25 radios include the AMBE+2 vocoder which is backwards compatible with IMBE, only without the improvements. Perhaps these newer radios will solve some of the long-standing P25 audio problems.
 
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