VHF Marine Radio installed in Fire Department Command Trailer

[clifford1]

Hello all,

My fire department operates a water rescue team which uses multiple boats and a command trailer on shore. The boats all have VHF Marine radios installed, however we would like to install a VHF Marine radio/antenna in the command trailer. This would be used to coordinate the efforts of boats on the water and would be the location of the incident command post during a water rescue operation.

I am aware their are regulations generally prohibiting the use of marine radios on land, however I would like to know if there are exceptions for organizations, such as my fire department, who would utilize the radios in this manner. Is this permitted? Does this require a special license (shore station)?

If anyone can point me in the direction of some reliable information on the subject it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Chris C.

 

[cdknapp]

If you take a good look at FCC part 90, emergency services has a LOT of leeway where other don’t. This is designed in many respects for law enforcement for usage during vice operations (e.g. drug buys, etc.) but should still apply for fire service as well. And considering this is something that you’re not going to be using on a regular basis (like ONLY during emergency ops and/or training), I don’t think you should have any problems.
I know that all of my services (both in PA and NY) just use existing fire tac channels for these types of operations.
Just Google ‘FCC part 90’ and you’ll be able to come up with it. I do believe you should be okay.
Are you in Clifford, Susquehanna County PA by any chance??

 

[clifford1]

Hey Dave, thanks for the info.

We have attempted to use our public safety VHF low-band radios on the boats, but there has been some technical and interoperability issues with them (some of the companies in the water rescue task force use other radio bands for their public safety radios). The VHF marine radios kind of provided an easy (
and economical) interoperability solution for the task force. But, alas, the only guy who couldn't talk to them was the commander on the shore. So we wanted to get him set up in the command trailer.

Actually, I am in Berks County PA, but I do know where Clifford is!

Chris C.

 

[davidzimmerman]

when i was working for a motorola shop in cleveland i did in stall marine radios in the fire command vehicle and they also got a few portables and when a water rescue happens they are working great for all in the rescue for cleveland fire also the fire boat engine-21 got a new radio.

 

[nd5y]

The DHS | National Interoperability Field Operations Guide says:
Non-maritime use of any VHF Marine channel requires FCC Special Temporary Authority or appropriate license.

Here are the FCC regulations for marine radio:
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:

 

[clifford1]

The DHS | National Interoperability Field Operations Guide says:
Non-maritime use of any VHF Marine channel requires FCC Special Temporary Authority or appropriate license.

Here are the FCC regulations for marine radio:
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:

Temporary authority probably would not work, since we don't really ever know when we will need to go on a rescue. What would the "appropriate license" be? I don't think the FD would have a problem getting the appropriate license, I just don't know what it is.

Chris C.

 

[nd5y]

Your fire dept. needs to talk to either a communications consultant, APCO, the FCC, or the Coast Guard. If they turn to hobby radio forums on the internet for licensing and legal advice they are stupid.

 

[cdknapp]

I think I can answer that one.... remeber, NIFOG would be used only during times of Federal activation/response. That is why I believe Part 90 may trump NIFOG. That being said, I am not sure exactly where marine band would play into things, as I don't believe it's mentioned in part 90.
Chris, I would review part 90, then contact the FCC (via phone or email; email gives you a written response) for further clairification. Just make sure that you let them know this involves emergency services, and thay this would be untilized only on the rare occasions that you have an incident or are exercising (training) your teams.
Another thing to keep in mind are the changes that take effect 1/1/2013 with narrow banding and interoperbility, as it sounds like you may have other concerns with the other agencies in your area. Looking at that, you may be able to solve your marine questions, and well as your day-to-day communications needs. Just thought I'd mention that!

 

[zz0468]

If you take a good look at FCC part 90, emergency services has a LOT of leeway where other don’t.

Marine radio is governed under part 80, NOT part 90.

 

[MtnBiker2005]

I don't see much different having a County/City/State Trunked System on land talking to Marine Ch.16 or Ch.12
You have the police officer(Oceanside Police) with his 800MHz radio talking though the TRS to the Marine Ch.16 boat user.

 

[n5ims]

Check out part 80, subpart K (Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:) which talks about the type of station you're needing to license.

 

[ffemt601]

Based on my understanding of 80.89 you don't need a shore license.


§ 80.89 Unauthorized transmissions.

Stations must not:

(a) Engage in superfluous radiocommunication.

(b) Use telephony on 243 MHz.

(c) Use selective calling on 2182 kHz or 156.800 MHz.

(d) When using telephony, transmit signals or communications not
addressed to a particular station or stations. This provision does not
apply to the transmission of distress, alarm, urgency, or safety
signals or messages, or to test transmissions.

(e) Transmit while on board vessels located on land unless authorized
under a public coast station license. Vessels in the following
situations are not considered to be on land for the purposes of this
paragraph:

(1) Vessels which are aground due to a distress situation;

(2) Vessels in drydock undergoing repairs; and

(3) State or local government vessels which are involved in search and
rescue operations including related training exercises.

(f) Transmit on frequencies or frequency bands not authorized on the
current station license.

[ 51 FR 31213 , Sept. 2, 1986, as amended at 52 FR 35244 , Sept. 18, 1987;
62 FR 40304 , July 28, 1997; 68 FR 46960 , Aug. 7, 2003]

 

[Thunderknight]

I think I can answer that one.... remeber, NIFOG would be used only during times of Federal activation/response.

That statement is incorrect.

The first page of the NIFOG states "The 'National Interoperability Field Operations Guide' (NIFOG) is a pocket-sized listing of land mobile radio (LMR) frequencies that are often used in disasters or other incidents where radio interoperability is required, and other information useful to emergency communicators."

The NIFOG contains information on both Part 90 and Federal (NTIA) frequencies, the latter requiring approval of a Federal agency to use and only for communication with a Federal agency..

It also states "the NIFOG does not grant authority to operate on any radio frequencies. Such authority can come only from the FCC or the NTIA".

Remember, the NIFOG is a guide, not a rule. That being said, some uses (like the VCALL/VTAC/UCALL/UTAC) frequencies are "licensed by rule" to public safety and they don't need a separate mobile license.

As to the specific marine question, I think that use would be covered (whether permitted or not) somewhere in part 80 and not part 90. If you are unable to find a clear answer, I would suggest contacting the FCC for an authoritative answer.

 

[radioman2001]

Our right of way road crews and bridge maintainers have marine channels in their radios. Our right of way runs along the Hudson river and we have bridges over the Hudson and East Rivers. NYPD has them in the helo, so I would say it's not a problem. It would be no different from a dock using one to talk to boats needing fuel.

 

[jaymatt1978]

I have seen a lot of fire department near large bodies of water program in the marine channels into their radios. Among the most noted wo uld have to be the Philidelphia Fire Dept when they were VHF. Below is an old radio plan I had. yeah I know they moved to 800MHz

154.2350 PHLIDEPHIA SOUTH FIRE 88.5
154.1450 PHILIDEPHIA NORTH FIRE 88.5
153.8300 FIREGROUND CSQ
153.9350 FIREGROUND CSQ
170.1500 PHILIDEPHIA NORTH MEDIC 88.5
153.9500 PHILIDEPHIA SOUTH MEDIC 88.5
156.6500 MARINE CHANNEL 13 CSQ
156.8000 MARINE CHANNEL 16 CSQ
156.3000 MARINE CHANNEL 06 CSQ
157.1000 MARINE CHANNEL 22A CSQ
157.0750 MARINE CHANNEL 61 CSQ

 

[exkalibur]

Look at it this way. If a Fire Department has these marine channels in their radio, is anyone going to care? The FCC can try all they want, they can even issue a fine. So what? It's a public safety agency - don't pay the fine, what is the FCC really going to do? The public interest has to out-weigh any of the FCC's arbitrary rules anyway.

 

[ScanXO]

stupid comments
yes of course the FD can use a marine radio in furtherence of thier public safety duties
as stated above the FCC dont care; alot of boaters have radios without licenses, so what?

 

[AA4TX]

Part 80 specifies that a state or local government is eligible for a public coast station. In our area of Florida, just about every county holds a public coast license for this very purpose. See for example WQMR721 for Lee County, Florida. Nothing in Part 80 indicates that a local government is exempt from licensing in the Maritime Services.

 

[hill]

ScanXO,

Pleasure boaters in operating in US waters with just VHF-FM Marine Radio aren't required to have a FCC Marine Radio License anymore. Don't remember the exact date of this change, but I think it was in the mid-1990's.

Larry

 

[Confuzzled]

Having a marine radio in a command post on land used only to communicate with marine entities like motor vessels and lock & dam lockmasters in regards to emergencies or notifications concerning marine traffic is one thing.

Using marine radio for rescue operations in lieu of normal rescue channels to enhance interoperability seems to be a different matter